EXACTLY the kind of response and attitude that is NOT required. People have money tied up in this. They are tired of being told to sit and wait. Poor show.
Pinball info
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New Heighway Owner
- Thread starter mufcmufc
- Start date
I wonder if the name will change
Was talking to a bloke from RollsRoyce (jet engines) last month - they're all over that LEAN6 Sigma stuff like a rash!
We have made stuff for the jet engine side of rolls in the past. Infact only a couple days ago we binned their samples lol
For my sins I have extensive experience of company finanancing, accountancy, banks, workout departments in banks .....
The sad reality about pinball manufacture is
1. It is massively cash consumptive - the time delay between building the plant, getting the tooling, paying for the designs, paying the wages, paying suppliers .... and receiving cash from selling the machines
2. It is massively complex, thousands of individual matters could cause delays, require re-engineering etc etc
3. One design flaw after the games have left the factory and the associated warranty claims could kill the business stone dead
4. The whole global industry virtually died when it had proper supply chains, getting stuff will be far harder now
When you hand over money to a fledgling pinball manufacturer you are taking an ENORMOUS gamble. And you must see it as a gamble. Either do not do it or try to get cover for your exposure. Perhaps paying by credit card would achieve this
You are essentially providing equity risk capital (ie shares) but you are not getting any ownership rights, no profit share, no voting rights. These are normally part and parcel of the deal when you provide equity risk capital. The guys who pay up front for games in this scenario should actually get some equity stake in the company as they are part funding the creation of the business.
Yet what you are getting is MAYBE one day you will get a game. MAYBE it will work. MAYBE it will be better than a Flintstones you could buy for £1500. MAYBE there will be spares when it goes wrong. MAYBE the boards will still work after 5 years ..... And if the business goes tits up before you get your game, you would be an unsecured creditor - last in line to get any money back from the company, hoping your bank / credit dard company will come good and reimburse you
Never say never, but virtually no rational corporate investors (private equity houses, dragons den type folk) would take the risk of investing in a new pinball manufacturer. The only folk who would, almost certainly have a love for the hobby, and invest knowing that they may very well lose everything. If the business plan wobbles and more money is needed the original investors would either have to stump up more cash or see their investment getting diluted by the new guys coming in.
It is hard to think of many riskier businesses to form than a pinball manufacturer.
Best bet would be someone with a big existing business, funding this pinball co out of their massive recurring income. Taking a very long term view. But this is needle in a haystack stuff.
Heighway could not realstically give a running commentary on whatever has been going on for all manner of reasons.
I suspect that those who have handed over hard cash in expectation of recieving a game one day can huff and puff as much as they like, but praying would probably do more good.
I want heighway to succeed. I want to see taffs manufacturing stuff in a country so in need of jobs. But folk need to be realistic about the scale of the challenge the brave folk at heighway have taken on, and the myriad of twists, turns, and acts of god they face
The sad reality about pinball manufacture is
1. It is massively cash consumptive - the time delay between building the plant, getting the tooling, paying for the designs, paying the wages, paying suppliers .... and receiving cash from selling the machines
2. It is massively complex, thousands of individual matters could cause delays, require re-engineering etc etc
3. One design flaw after the games have left the factory and the associated warranty claims could kill the business stone dead
4. The whole global industry virtually died when it had proper supply chains, getting stuff will be far harder now
When you hand over money to a fledgling pinball manufacturer you are taking an ENORMOUS gamble. And you must see it as a gamble. Either do not do it or try to get cover for your exposure. Perhaps paying by credit card would achieve this
You are essentially providing equity risk capital (ie shares) but you are not getting any ownership rights, no profit share, no voting rights. These are normally part and parcel of the deal when you provide equity risk capital. The guys who pay up front for games in this scenario should actually get some equity stake in the company as they are part funding the creation of the business.
Yet what you are getting is MAYBE one day you will get a game. MAYBE it will work. MAYBE it will be better than a Flintstones you could buy for £1500. MAYBE there will be spares when it goes wrong. MAYBE the boards will still work after 5 years ..... And if the business goes tits up before you get your game, you would be an unsecured creditor - last in line to get any money back from the company, hoping your bank / credit dard company will come good and reimburse you
Never say never, but virtually no rational corporate investors (private equity houses, dragons den type folk) would take the risk of investing in a new pinball manufacturer. The only folk who would, almost certainly have a love for the hobby, and invest knowing that they may very well lose everything. If the business plan wobbles and more money is needed the original investors would either have to stump up more cash or see their investment getting diluted by the new guys coming in.
It is hard to think of many riskier businesses to form than a pinball manufacturer.
Best bet would be someone with a big existing business, funding this pinball co out of their massive recurring income. Taking a very long term view. But this is needle in a haystack stuff.
Heighway could not realstically give a running commentary on whatever has been going on for all manner of reasons.
I suspect that those who have handed over hard cash in expectation of recieving a game one day can huff and puff as much as they like, but praying would probably do more good.
I want heighway to succeed. I want to see taffs manufacturing stuff in a country so in need of jobs. But folk need to be realistic about the scale of the challenge the brave folk at heighway have taken on, and the myriad of twists, turns, and acts of god they face
My guess is that it's the Scandinavians.
Sigma stuff is all old hat now... It;s all about AGILE and HUDDLES nowadays
Pinside Inc??
D
Deleted member 2463
I'm thinking the Bolivians
I hope it all goes well and the company survives and goes forward, get all the alien orders done asap and out the door, I would be tempted to buy one of these if I could drive up and buy one at the door, but with all the previous doubts and delays it was putting me off any pre order
I may be completely wrong but I have a vague notion that about two or three years ago there was some investment/cash injection from Norway. I think one of the guys was an operator and businessman over there. So it could be him/them, but then again it may indeed be the Bolivians.
I think it's the Slovakians
Chinese. It's always the Chinese.
R
RobZombie
Sigma stuff is all old hat now... It;s all about AGILE and HUDDLES nowadays
Pinside Inc??
Agile
Sigma stuff is all old hat now... It;s all about AGILE and HUDDLES nowadays
Pinside Inc??
It's the weekend dude! No need to be using words like 'agile', 'huddles' and 'scrums' unless you're referring to rugby. Aaargh
I believe it's the romulans..
Best of luck to Andy and all at Heighway, Britain's first and as yet only pinball manufacturer.
it's the Kardashians
Ok. Been off the forums for a day and all hell has broken out!
Need to read the back story of what has happened here but I did meet an investor at the full throttle launch party at the pipeline. I think he was a scandy and he had over 120 machines back home in a purpose built barn (nice). He said he had just bought into highway and described himself as the 'money man' . Wish the guys well. It is a very hard industry.
Need to read the back story of what has happened here but I did meet an investor at the full throttle launch party at the pipeline. I think he was a scandy and he had over 120 machines back home in a purpose built barn (nice). He said he had just bought into highway and described himself as the 'money man' . Wish the guys well. It is a very hard industry.
So your the guy who doesn't answer the emails when customers have an issue.
You have no credibility with customers with issues like me.
That sounds like the chap.
It's obviously the Libyans!
OK. Just read back from the start. Very worrying indeed.
I do find it odd that Stern get such a bashing. Dreaming maybe be just that and that is why Stern have been the ONLY pinball manufacturer that has stood the test of time. JJP nearly went bust as they do try to make the 'best' pinball machines out there but that doesn't mean the numbers stack up.
I think Dave drd has got it spot on. Investing money in a business with no real guarantee of success is a ... gamble. No real news here to be fair. Unless people didn't realise the risk was there in the first place.
I do hope that heighway succeeds and that everyone who has paid up front for their game get it. Complete and working.
I do hope that heighway succeeds and that everyone who has paid up front for their game get it. Complete and working.
Did you say you work in Customer Support?
Speaks volumes doesn't it?
give @Helmut Langenbruch a break, everyone is overworked and does a million things there, poor old Helmut is also in charge of writing manuals and a million other tasks, and i bet Andy tells him what to do about forum posting and how/who/whether to respond to customer enquiries. Helmut is a good dude who has been caught in the middle of this ****storm and i suspect he's gonna end up losing pay as well as sleep for something that isn't his fault, he was just an employee and i hope he gets to keep his job under the new management, if the company continues to be in business ....
Couldn't agree more, I like Stern pinballs and the company gets way too much criticism IMO.
Are they greedy pirates charging far too much for their products? I don't know but it's worth remembering that Stern itself was sinking fast not so long ago - they also have had to be bailed out (Stern is now owned by "money-men" via a holding company).
Making pinball pay must be pretty tough.
R
robertlucas1970
So reading all this have people just paid a deposit or have some people paid in full ?
If they have paid in full why would you do that ?
I read about the problems they had with FT and I think one pin was almost going to get set on fire after months and months of not getting sorted out, that alone is enough to proceed with caution.
I know people can claim the funds back on a credit card, but a debit card is a different kettle of fish and I would not leave it any longer, I would be on the phone trying to get my funds back.
If they have paid in full why would you do that ?
I read about the problems they had with FT and I think one pin was almost going to get set on fire after months and months of not getting sorted out, that alone is enough to proceed with caution.
I know people can claim the funds back on a credit card, but a debit card is a different kettle of fish and I would not leave it any longer, I would be on the phone trying to get my funds back.
I'm all for dreams my friend, but Andy was foolish and reckless with people's money. He constantly took credit for achieving his dream before he proved anything. He repeatedly would make claims about how many games Heighway was going to make. He repeatedly gave customers false ship dates to take their money. If you haven't heard this, you should:
I get making Pinball is hard, and it is, but Andrew wanted to be the next Gary Stern without building up slowly. You can't flick a switch and make 500 pinball machines a month when you know nothing about making pinball machines. Yet that's what his dream was. It's not GOD BLESS ANDY, it's GOD HELP the buyers who have tons of money now tied up in a **** show.
You are spot on my friend. I'll just say the number JJP needed was over 5 million. The point everyone is missing is this: JJP had shipped 2,000 WOZ BEFORE he got the bailout to make Hobbit. 2,000! His factory was a well oiled machine that just needed money. Andrew shipped less than 100 Full Throttles, he never had a production line going that could handle volume. Hand screwed together games one at a time...was like a large homebrew operation disguised as a pinball factory. Investing money into Andy's mess won't create a quick fix. They literally have to start over and rebuild an entire large scale pinball company from the ground up. My question is...why not just start over? Alien is a game not worth saving. They have the license. Just rename the company and say look, we ****ed up...we're going to fix this and start over...not save Heighway Pinball. It's like saving Zidware. Why bother.
How long are buyers gonna keep the faith too? Months more? As they watch Star Wars and Dialed IN owners rip open their boxes with joy, these buyers will quickly get fed up and head for more reliable shores. My prediction is this investor is going to realize the challenges ahead and bail in a few weeks. Pintasia 2.0, here we come.
