Heat pumps

[Julian Hepworth]

Does anyone have an experience good/bad of air/ground source heat pumps for heating a building ?
I have none so went on youtube where I found people saying very positive things and also people saying very negative things.

Thanks
Julian

 

[DAFlippers]

We have a heat pump on my wife's studio in the garden. Works well but last year the unit iced up when it was very cold but humid, it is supposed to heat the exchange unit to melt any frost but....

David

 

[Tucks]

Have looked at it as doing a house renovation but definitely decided not to go down that route. A builder that gave me a quote had one but also had to install a boiler and GSH as it didn't produce enough heat.

From my research:

1) You house has to be very very well insulated.
2) Works best with underfloor heating
3) doesn't work well with normal radiators as it needs a very large surface area.
4) Only produce 'ambient' heat so your house never gets warm, it's just not cold.
5) They are very noisy outside and take up a lot of room.

There is a professional builder that has a good YouTube channel that has done a review and talks through the pros and cons.

If you like a warm house, I'd avoid.

 

[Julian Hepworth]

We have a heat pump on my wife's studio in the garden. Works well but last year the unit iced up when it was very cold but humid, it is supposed to heat the exchange unit to melt any frost but....

David

Yes I heard about that happening. That aside, are you happy with the temp you get in the winter ?

 

[todler]

You can now get high temp Air source heat pumps (80`C) so consumerate with central heating and not so much of an issue with installing larger radiators. However believe these are a lot more expensive.
I've had no involvement for domestic properties but we installed some at an MOD base several years ago (over 5 years on reflection) and had a lot of issues with ice around the units. They do a defrost cycle and drains get blocked/frozen and the ice just kept building up. Technology may have moved on since though. Also the fact the colder it gets the less heat you get out. Reverse of what you want.

 

[John Taylor]

I asked my electrician about them as he used to install them, air source (not ground). He says he was always getting call outs when it was cold that 'they had broke', they were working but did not get enough heat.... he advised me to steer clear.

I had aircon (with inverter) fitted in my games room a couple of months ago, game changer for keeping the room warm and getting it warm quick. My kitchen has 5m of glass out to the garden... gets too hot in summer and too cold in winter. Having aircon fitted in the new year.

Thanks

 

[DRD]

I looked into these a few years ago. I have a 19tu century house with a half acre garden so could have buried a substantial water coil.

As the technology stands it does not work very effectively at heating water in established housing.

You really need to design the house with a heat pump in mind - insulated floors, underfloor heating, triple glazing, totally sealed from drafts, fresh air heat exchange system....

The technology is improving all the time but I don't think it is "there" yet.

You could install a couple of split inverter heat pump aircon units - these just heat/ cool air, not water. I am delighted with the two I have but I have no idea how efficient they truly are.

These 2 are very definitely old school and like sitting on the oil boiler.

 

[Jazzbouche]

Have looked at it as doing a house renovation but definitely decided not to go down that route. A builder that gave me a quote had one but also had to install a boiler and GSH as it didn't produce enough heat.

From my research:

1) You house has to be very very well insulated.
2) Works best with underfloor heating
3) doesn't work well with normal radiators as it needs a very large surface area.
4) Only produce 'ambient' heat so your house never gets warm, it's just not cold.
5) They are very noisy outside and take up a lot of room.

There is a professional builder that has a good YouTube channel that has done a review and talks through the pros and cons.

If you like a warm house, I'd avoid.

I’d disagree with these points. We have a GSHP and I’d say you definitely need a specialist to spec it all up. Ours runs radiators which we had to update and they ran fine, though recently we upgraded them to more effective rads built for GSHP specifically (which are awesome, so far). The radiators do not get as hot as standard rads, but our system is set up so that on a very cold day the temp of the system goes up accordingly. Our rooms do get toasty warm, but it’s all about efficiency and getting the right spec. I will say though, that it’s taken a few years to get it all running smoothly with no hiccups (touch wood), and we got the grants when installed which will virtually cover the full install when all said and done, and finally I also had the old LPG boiler set up as a backup (never needed it yet - touch wood).

Finding a good specialist in these is hard though. You want the reliable backup when something goes wrong (as it inevitably will at some point) and a lot of plumbers will not have much experience of them.

And yes they are noisy (or ours is at least) and that’s why it’s in the garage across from the house.

They won’t be for everyone. Nowadays, and after having a few put in upstairs, I would definitely look at aircon units that would also warm up the rooms - very efficient units nowadays.

 

[Julian Hepworth]

Have looked at it as doing a house renovation but definitely decided not to go down that route. A builder that gave me a quote had one but also had to install a boiler and GSH as it didn't produce enough heat.

From my research:

1) You house has to be very very well insulated.
2) Works best with underfloor heating
3) doesn't work well with normal radiators as it needs a very large surface area.
4) Only produce 'ambient' heat so your house never gets warm, it's just not cold.
5) They are very noisy outside and take up a lot of room.

There is a professional builder that has a good YouTube channel that has done a review and talks through the pros and cons.

If you like a warm house, I'd avoid.

Thank you - very helpful

I'm considering it for a new building that will be for pinball machines and was considering underfloor heating, so I don't envisage any radiators and I'd hopefully be able to make sure it was well insulated.

I hear what you say about the noise of the units - that and other people's experience of them freezing up when you most need them make me wonder about ground source. We're on a farm so would have the space I think for the pipes - I know they install is more expensive. Not sure how the pumps compare for the two - need to look into that.

 

[DRD]

For a pinshed, just get a split inverter aircon unit. A few of us have these and I think the general consensus is very positive

 

[Julian Hepworth]

I’d disagree with these points. We have a GSHP and I’d say you definitely need a specialist to spec it all up. Ours runs radiators which we had to update and they ran fine, though recently we upgraded them to more effective rads built for GSHP specifically (which are awesome, so far). The radiators do not get as hot as standard rads, but our system is set up so that on a very cold day the temp of the system goes up accordingly. Our rooms do get toasty warm, but it’s all about efficiency and getting the right spec. I will say though, that it’s taken a few years to get it all running smoothly with no hiccups (touch wood), and we got the grants when installed which will virtually cover the full install when all said and done, and finally I also had the old LPG boiler set up as a backup (never needed it yet - touch wood).

Finding a good specialist in these is hard though. You want the reliable backup when something goes wrong (as it inevitably will at some point) and a lot of plumbers will not have much experience of them.

And yes they are noisy (or ours is at least) and that’s why it’s in the garage across from the house.

They won’t be for everyone. Nowadays, and after having a few put in upstairs, I would definitely look at aircon units that would also warm up the rooms - very efficient units nowadays.

Interesting , thank you; assuming GSHP is ground source, have other people been talking about air source ?
Can I ask how big the pump unit is ? I assume you have a horizontal pipe array (there's no doubt a better term than that...) as opposed to the bore hole vertical ones ?

 

[DRD]

What volume will your pinshed be ?

 

[Julian Hepworth]

What volume will your pinshed be ?

It's more of a barn, so quite large - I have planning permission for a 15m x 10m Dutch barn (curved roof) with a mezzanine.
Whether I have the balls to build it is an entirely different thing.

 

[Tucks]

I’d disagree with these points

Eh??? You've literally just proved my points.

Ours runs radiators which we had to update

recently we upgraded them to more effective rads

The radiators do not get as hot as standard rads

it’s taken a few years to get it all running smoothly

old LPG boiler set up as a backup

You want the reliable backup when something goes wrong (as it inevitably will at some point)

And yes they are noisy

 

[Rob zombie]

Had this type of heating when I lived in Sweden. As others have said, it never gets warm. Just not cold. You really get paranoid about leaving external doors open too long in winter while bringing in shopping for instance. It's not a system I would ever want by choice. Might be ok combined with a log burner though.

 

[Jazzbouche]

Eh??? You've literally just proved my points.

Ha, nice cherry picking!
I’m not 100% disagreeing, but, radiators can be 100% effective. Your house can be toasty warm, and you don’t need to be massively insulated to achieve this. All of which are what you stated based on your builder guy. However, it can be a ball-ache to achieve all this so you need an expert, that’s all I’m saying.

 

[daveyp]

I have two properties that have Air Source.
The unit for my own property has been very problematic but then a full new build holiday let I have has been fine but this is as people have said very well insulated as a new build with full underfloor heating in.
The main reasons are the systems payed for themselves after the RHI paynments over 7 years and both properties not having a mains gas connection.

 

[Jazzbouche]

Interesting , thank you; assuming GSHP is ground source, have other people been talking about air source ?
Can I ask how big the pump unit is ? I assume you have a horizontal pipe array (there's no doubt a better term than that...) as opposed to the bore hole vertical ones ?

Pretty sure ours is a 15KW hybrid (Ground source Heat pump). With the slinky layout (not the vertical hole bore). As others have mentioned, they're not necessarily without their issues. In our case the fact we're not on mains gas, and the RHI at the time plus the solar panels and battery all made sense to me. But it is a different way of heating than you're probably used to. As mentioned (and as others have mentioned), I'd definitely look at the split inverter aircon units. I have underfloor heating in my 'pin-shed', and it's good but I suspect an air-con unit would be more versatile. Just my two cents.

 

[Deleted member 2463]

I have a heat pump and gas boiler at home. Since putting the heat pump in the boiler has been off - wouldn’t go back. The problem you have is most plumbers don’t have a clue about heat pumps and they talk absolute nonsense about them. I’d never go back. Especially with gas prices as they are now!

 

[Deleted member 2463]

For your pinball room though split unit inverter will be all you need. Probably 20kw system maybe costing around 2K at worst - go either mitsu or fujitsu.

 

[Julian Hepworth]

Thanks for all the comments - much appreciated. I hadn't considered the split AC units, but will now.
We're not on gas here, so that rules out some options.

We nearly bought a property last year where the owners had completely rebuilt an old farm house and put in a new biomass boiler, but a wheel came off the marriage (his, not mine) and they had to sell, and the boiler apparently put so many people off, he wound up ripping the whole thing out and replacing it with a gas boiler in an attempt to sell it.

Sad on several levels, although the house did wind up with an enormous utility room afterwards - bit like a rocket silo.

 

[Julian Hepworth]

...although 2 pints in, I feel myself being seduced by German pellet engineering.

I'll get my coat.

 

[Juggler Spencer]

Does anyone have an experience good/bad of air/ground source heat pumps for heating a building ?
I have none so went on youtube where I found people saying very positive things and also people saying very negative things.

Thanks
Julian

Julian, PM me if you want to chat about Ground source heat pumps. I have a wealth of real world experience. Fitted and used ground source in my main house and air source in my out buildings. If properly specced and configured produces a warm house (we ran ours to a constant 23 degrees) and lots of hot water for peanuts. Our electricity bill was £1.7k per annum TOTAL for a sizable three bedroom house, 2 x holiday lets on-site, workshops, office building, store etc. Never any issues. Low maintenance. The Thermia unit we had was virtually silent (no more noise than a freezer when the compressor is running is running). Only downside is that, ideally, you need a plant room for the equipment. The GSHP requires decent buffer tank etc to ensure that you don't short cycle the heat pump.