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“oyez, oyez, oyez “ The end is nigh!
- Thread starter Colywobbles
- Start date
......
Yeah they definitely made some decent games pre 08, TSPP and LOTR being the standouts I guess (I really like the Whitestar SAM era from a VFM point) but there's some modes that aren't even programmed in Wheel of Fortune. I hear my poor old CSI listed as an example of Stern at its worst, I disagree of course (hence owning one) but can see why people may feel like that, but honestly I'm struggling to think of any LCD era clunkers.
Some are a bit baron and others maybe don't shoot quite as well as the greats like Godzilla, but all are well.... just fine.
Thank you for the responses. That puts it into perspective for me.
Austin Powers - we can surely compare that to Venom or any other modern Pro.
£3k in 2001 = £5381
Wow! I agree that prices have genuinely soared.
Gosh, imagine being able to buy any modern Stern Pro NIB for £5.3K
Austin Powers - we can surely compare that to Venom or any other modern Pro.
£3k in 2001 = £5381
Wow! I agree that prices have genuinely soared.
Gosh, imagine being able to buy any modern Stern Pro NIB for £5.3K
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Yep - all relative though , that still seemed mental money to most of us
Buying NIB for home wasn’t the thing it is now.For comparison . Around then ballpark figures for older titles via eBay or the Yahoo group
Sys 11 and older - a few hundred tops
Fish Tales , T2, Wh20 etc £400/500
TAF , TZ, AFM still below 1k
MM was always the holy grail then 2k
2 decades ago when I started in this madness
Fubar
Site Supporter
But! GBPUSD in 2001 avg was 1.44 whereas now 1.21. If you scale the price by that much you get £6403. Still far from the £8500 of today's pro models of course...
Does the wayback machine work for those ? Or secret handshake figuresYep - all relative though , that still seemed mental money to most of us
For comparison . Around then ballpark figures for older titles via eBay or the Yahoo group
Sys 11 and older - a few hundred tops
Fish Tales , T2, Wh20 etc £400/500
TAF , TZ, AFM still below 1k
MM was always the holy grail then 2k
2 decades ago when I started in this madness
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No idea. Those are from memory .
Iirc Stern work on a 1 to 1 exchange rate for UK.
Price of LOTR was about 3k plus VAT . I do remember it as the first game that we delivered on behalf of Phil to private owners in any real quantity NIB. That and TSSP were breakthrough games for Stern that had been scraping along since the demise of WMS with lacklustre titles. At the huge ATEI at Earls Court in 2002 Electrocoin had a High Roller Casino on their stand . One pinball in a huge hall bar some spannish bingos and TAB video pins.
for comparisome
Defender video and Firepower pin were about 1k each. Addams was 2k. Then companies rode the wave and Popeye was 3500 and made no money, operators got burnt and the crash started.
if you think that firepower etc were 10p a go and pinball is now generally £1 a go , £10k now for a NIB should be about right! Tongue firmly in (both) cheek(s) here!!!
for comparisome
Defender video and Firepower pin were about 1k each. Addams was 2k. Then companies rode the wave and Popeye was 3500 and made no money, operators got burnt and the crash started.
if you think that firepower etc were 10p a go and pinball is now generally £1 a go , £10k now for a NIB should be about right! Tongue firmly in (both) cheek(s) here!!!
Hmmm. I've played Wheel of Fortune at Pinball Office and it's great cheesy fun. Really entertaining if you grew up with naff 90s gameshows. So... horses for courses. It's not clear to me that the code is finished on all of the modern Sterns.
So... LCD clunkers (and I'm going to get a LOAD of pushback on these in 3... 2... 1):
Munsters. Widely panned for trying to be a Bally-Williams-era pin when Stern's forte isn't designing Bally-Williams-era pins. My understanding is that, once you've shot all the family members to start their modes... that's, well, it. It also has the worst secondary playfield since Family Guy. I kinda expected the lower playfield to have a full-sized ball like, well, Gottlieb managed in 1980 with Black Hole or Stern managed with AC/DC. But, no, it's a bizarre mini-playfield with a pea ball
Munsters are SOOO unpopular that you rarely see one anywhere, and it took two years before I eventually managed to find one to play at Pinfest.Led Zeppelin Pro. Tournament players love Led Zeppelin because of the amazing flow, but it is a pretty empty playfield - the Pro is worse than the Prem - and the result is an epic 'meh'. I mean, it's okay, but so is No Fear, Super Hoop and... well, just about any other pin with a half-decent layout (i.e. a lot of machines).
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. I am going to get SOOO much pushback on this one because it has a fanbase, but the shot configurations have this strange feel of being not-quite-in-the-right place and, when you're playing it, it's a pretty straightforward mode-based machine. Thus, it feels like a LOT of effort without much reward. I really like hard pins, but can't be bothered with this one because it's so epically 'blah'.
Avengers: Infinity Quest. I personally love it, but it has precisely no link between theme and mechanics (except superheroes swooping around?), and a ruleset that makes no sense without watching a tutorial video. Over the summer holidays, I literally ended up tutoring a family in an arcade in Whitby who'd turned up to play Addam's Family (but it was out of action) on how to get a mode started in A:IQ. It's absolutely inaccessible on a walk-up and play basis, and the only reason I like the ruleset is because I'm also into multi-hour tabletop strategy games. Thus, you need to be a serious Elwin/gameplay/tournament fan for this one to 'fly' with you. Not necessarily a clunker, but a misfire from Stern.
James Bond 007 (60th anniversary). My Pinside review of this has been widely panned/flagged, presumably by owners who want to protect their $25k investment. Personally, I like it, but only because Elwin's layout managed to pick victory from the jaws of defeat. The art direction is a return to Stern's 'photoshop' era. The score reels on the back-glass are very obviously a c**p retrofit of an existing backbox, and don't even provide enough digits for a half-decent game. All the instructions are on a teeny-tiny screen with a nasty grey backdrop embedded into the playfield. The ruleset is, again, incomprehensible on a walk-up basis, which the 1980s pins it took inspiration from rarely were. Yeah, I like this one, and if I could get a discount one, I'd probably own it, but only because I love 80s pins and layouts designed by a tournament player. Not because this is anything but a clusterf**k.
Guardians and Mando are, in my view, aggressively mediocre and the only reason Stranger Things is good is because it rips off two of the best pins of all time (while making them cheaper, uglier and more incomprehensible). I've not played Venom, but the initial feedback I've read is that the rules are not intuitive without a tutorial video (the A:IQ problem), it's a standard fan layout, and there aren't really many moving parts either - so, very much the A:IQ failure mode but without the cool Elwin layout.
Lots of pushback expected, but that's always the case with pins as it's very subjective. As you say, you like CSI (which I've never played, but - yes - I've heard the consensus view is it's bad)
Last edited:
It was 3,495 I just posted the actual listing off Pinball Heaven from 2003
From the BoE
Aha - sorry I didnt see that post but must be about right LOL Was VAT 15% then?
I didnt buy NIB (at normal retail) until Batman 66. What I paid NIB (or unboxed not used) for Als Garage Band , Jackbot and Whodunnit might invoked cardiac arrests.
I didnt buy NIB (at normal retail) until Batman 66. What I paid NIB (or unboxed not used) for Als Garage Band , Jackbot and Whodunnit might invoked cardiac arrests.
17.5%
Fubar
Site Supporter
Why would Stern care about the exchange rate - surely it's electrocoin's problem?
My understanding is that the 1:1 conversion was a useful approximation when the 20% VAT and shipping compensated the 1.3 ish exchange rate.
Hmmm. I've played Wheel of Fortune at Pinball Office and it's great cheesy fun. Really entertaining if you grew up with naff 90s gameshows. So... horses for courses. It's not clear to me that the code is finished on all of the modern Sterns.
So... LCD clunkers (and I'm going to get a LOAD of pushback on these in 3... 2... 1):
Munsters. Widely panned for trying to be a Bally-Williams-era pin when Stern's forte isn't designing Bally-Williams-era pins. My understanding is that, once you've shot all the family members to start their modes... that's, well, it. It also has the worst secondary playfield since Family Guy. I kinda expected the lower playfield to have a full-sized ball like, well, Gottlieb managed in 1980 with Black Hole or Stern managed with AC/DC. But, no, it's a bizarre mini-playfield with a pea ball
Led Zeppelin Pro. Tournament players love Led Zeppelin because of the amazing flow, but it is a pretty empty playfield - the Pro is worse than the Prem - and the result is an epic 'meh'. I mean, it's okay, but so is No Fear, Super Hoop and... well, just about any other pin with a half-decent layout (i.e. a lot of machines).
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. I am going to get SOOO much pushback on this one because it has a fanbase, but the shot configurations have this strange feel of being not-quite-in-the-right place and, when you're playing it, it's a pretty straightforward mode-based machine. Thus, it feels like a LOT of effort without much reward. I really like hard pins, but can't be bothered with this one because it's so epically 'blah'.
Avengers: Infinity Quest. I personally love it, but it has precisely no link between theme and mechanics (except superheroes swooping around?), and a ruleset that makes no sense without watching a tutorial video. Over the summer holidays, I literally ended up tutoring a family in an arcade in Whitby who'd turned up to play Addam's Family (but it was out of action) on how to get a mode started in A:IQ. It's absolutely inaccessible on a walk-up and play basis, and the only reason I like the ruleset is because I'm also into multi-hour tabletop strategy games. Thus, you need to be a serious Elwin/gameplay/tournament fan for this one to 'fly' with you. Not necessarily a clunker, but a misfire from Stern.
James Bond 007 (60th anniversary). My Pinside review of this has been widely panned/flagged, presumably by owners who want to protect their $25k investment. Personally, I like it, but only because Elwin's layout managed to pick victory from the jaws of defeat. The art direction is a return to Stern's 'photoshop' era. The score reels on the back-glass are very obviously a c**p retrofit of an existing backbox, and don't even provide enough digits for a half-decent game. All the instructions are on a teeny-tiny screen with a nasty grey backdrop embedded into the playfield. The ruleset is, again, incomprehensible on a walk-up basis, which the 1980s pins it took inspiration from rarely were. Yeah, I like this one, and if I could get a discount one, I'd probably own it, but only because I love 80s pins and layouts designed by a tournament player. Not because this is anything but a clusterf**k.
Guardians and Mando are, in my view, aggressively mediocre and the only reason Stranger Things is good is because it rips off two of the best pins of all time (while making them cheaper, uglier and more incomprehensible). I've not played Venom, but the initial feedback I've read is that the rules are not intuitive without a tutorial video (the A:IQ problem), it's a standard fan layout, and there aren't really many moving parts either - so, very much the A:IQ failure mode but without the cool Elwin layout.
Lots of pushback expected, but that's always the case with pins as it's very subjective. As you say, you like CSI (which I've never played, but - yes - I've heard the consensus view is it's bad)
No pushback from me, always good to hear opinions from someone who has experienced a much wider array of pins than me, funnily enough Turtles was pretty much my fav last time I visited Funland. I certainly enjoyed it as much as Godzilla, but I'm much more of a casual player than a tournament regular, so theme, art and sounds probably sways my opinion there.
I think in some ways you really need to experience a lot of pins to really understand the small nuances that make one pin better than the other, would the casual player who visits the local arcade a few times a year or someone with a couple of pins in a home really have the depth of experience to pick up on what makes these machines bad?
I hate to resort to the cargument idea, but its a bit like when Top Gear rated a car badly, for something like lacking steering feel on the limit of grip or something, sure it seams a big deal to motoring journalists who drive for a living, but 99% of the public wouldn't notice.
Its funny seeing you mention Mando there, as having brought one I kinda feel the instinctive need to defend it, despite buying it after it had been out ages so well aware of its good and bad points and how people rate it.
Still, would be a boring old discussion forum if we all agreed on things
In reality demand for machines spiked during Covid. People stuck at home with increased disposable money due to not being able to got to the pub, restaurants, cinema or any other social hobbies. Not being able to go on holiday, etc. Interest rates were significantly lower than now and so people looked for something to spend their money on,
Manufacturers/distributors (and private sellers) were able to charge a premium and make a higher profit from machines they'd already manufactured (or owned) - and they did.
This meant lots of people paid over the odds for machines.
Now, take in to account the fact that people had overpaid, general rise in inflation, rise in interest rates, general cost of living crisis and people are being a bit more careful with how they're spending their money. Very few people are going to be getting anything like what they paid for a machine 2-3 years ago. So if you want to sell a machine (either second hand or NIB) you're going to have to lower your expectations as to what you can get for it. It seems the majority haven't/can't yet accept that. I was speaking to someone only yesterday who new to the hobby has lost over 6k in less than 2 years, and the prices he paid originally weren't excessive. Not everyone can afford that - I certainly can't.
The fact that the next Stern is likely to be an Elwin, means that Stern won't have to drop their price, and may even be able to get away with a small increase - but I can't see that being able to be continued for future releases. People selling their machines, whether that be to free up space or funds are likely going to have to accept that they bought at the peak and demand has dropped significantly since then, but judging by the prices in the For Sale threads many can't accept that. A Ponzi scheme can only last as long as new money is coming in at the bottom.
Manufacturers/distributors (and private sellers) were able to charge a premium and make a higher profit from machines they'd already manufactured (or owned) - and they did.
This meant lots of people paid over the odds for machines.
Now, take in to account the fact that people had overpaid, general rise in inflation, rise in interest rates, general cost of living crisis and people are being a bit more careful with how they're spending their money. Very few people are going to be getting anything like what they paid for a machine 2-3 years ago. So if you want to sell a machine (either second hand or NIB) you're going to have to lower your expectations as to what you can get for it. It seems the majority haven't/can't yet accept that. I was speaking to someone only yesterday who new to the hobby has lost over 6k in less than 2 years, and the prices he paid originally weren't excessive. Not everyone can afford that - I certainly can't.
The fact that the next Stern is likely to be an Elwin, means that Stern won't have to drop their price, and may even be able to get away with a small increase - but I can't see that being able to be continued for future releases. People selling their machines, whether that be to free up space or funds are likely going to have to accept that they bought at the peak and demand has dropped significantly since then, but judging by the prices in the For Sale threads many can't accept that. A Ponzi scheme can only last as long as new money is coming in at the bottom.
Dearest Col,
Without appearing pedantic, I think you will find that it’s….. “oyez, oyez, oyez “
(See footnote below).
Yours New Forest Pinball.
*
“Oyez, oyez, oyez!”
This is the call or cry of the town crier, now usually only heard at ceremonials, fetes and local events. It would however have been a common cry on the streets of medieval England.
‘Oyez’ (pronounced ‘oh yay’) comes from the French ouïr (‘to listen’) and means “Hear ye”. The town crier would begin his cry with these words, accompanied by the ringing of a large hand bell to attract attention. It was the job of the crier or bellman to inform the townspeople of the latest news, proclamations, bylaws and any other important information, as at this time most folk were illiterate and could not read.
The cry would then end with the words, ‘God save the King’ or ‘God save the Queen’.
OP
OP
Edited as at the time I could just no remember the chant even though I had Frankie Howard in my head with the series Up Pompeii.
Titter ye not!
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Mild pushbackHmmm. I've played Wheel of Fortune at Pinball Office and it's great cheesy fun. Really entertaining if you grew up with naff 90s gameshows. So... horses for courses. It's not clear to me that the code is finished on all of the modern Sterns.
So... LCD clunkers (and I'm going to get a LOAD of pushback on these in 3... 2... 1):
Munsters. Widely panned for trying to be a Bally-Williams-era pin when Stern's forte isn't designing Bally-Williams-era pins. My understanding is that, once you've shot all the family members to start their modes... that's, well, it. It also has the worst secondary playfield since Family Guy. I kinda expected the lower playfield to have a full-sized ball like, well, Gottlieb managed in 1980 with Black Hole or Stern managed with AC/DC. But, no, it's a bizarre mini-playfield with a pea ball
Led Zeppelin Pro. Tournament players love Led Zeppelin because of the amazing flow, but it is a pretty empty playfield - the Pro is worse than the Prem - and the result is an epic 'meh'. I mean, it's okay, but so is No Fear, Super Hoop and... well, just about any other pin with a half-decent layout (i.e. a lot of machines).
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. I am going to get SOOO much pushback on this one because it has a fanbase, but the shot configurations have this strange feel of being not-quite-in-the-right place and, when you're playing it, it's a pretty straightforward mode-based machine. Thus, it feels like a LOT of effort without much reward. I really like hard pins, but can't be bothered with this one because it's so epically 'blah'.
Avengers: Infinity Quest. I personally love it, but it has precisely no link between theme and mechanics (except superheroes swooping around?), and a ruleset that makes no sense without watching a tutorial video. Over the summer holidays, I literally ended up tutoring a family in an arcade in Whitby who'd turned up to play Addam's Family (but it was out of action) on how to get a mode started in A:IQ. It's absolutely inaccessible on a walk-up and play basis, and the only reason I like the ruleset is because I'm also into multi-hour tabletop strategy games. Thus, you need to be a serious Elwin/gameplay/tournament fan for this one to 'fly' with you. Not necessarily a clunker, but a misfire from Stern.
James Bond 007 (60th anniversary). My Pinside review of this has been widely panned/flagged, presumably by owners who want to protect their $25k investment. Personally, I like it, but only because Elwin's layout managed to pick victory from the jaws of defeat. The art direction is a return to Stern's 'photoshop' era. The score reels on the back-glass are very obviously a c**p retrofit of an existing backbox, and don't even provide enough digits for a half-decent game. All the instructions are on a teeny-tiny screen with a nasty grey backdrop embedded into the playfield. The ruleset is, again, incomprehensible on a walk-up basis, which the 1980s pins it took inspiration from rarely were. Yeah, I like this one, and if I could get a discount one, I'd probably own it, but only because I love 80s pins and layouts designed by a tournament player. Not because this is anything but a clusterf**k.
Guardians and Mando are, in my view, aggressively mediocre and the only reason Stranger Things is good is because it rips off two of the best pins of all time (while making them cheaper, uglier and more incomprehensible). I've not played Venom, but the initial feedback I've read is that the rules are not intuitive without a tutorial video (the A:IQ problem), it's a standard fan layout, and there aren't really many moving parts either - so, very much the A:IQ failure mode but without the cool Elwin layout.
Lots of pushback expected, but that's always the case with pins as it's very subjective. As you say, you like CSI (which I've never played, but - yes - I've heard the consensus view is it's bad)
LZ Pro.
Sure, stripped back to hell and back.
But, when you get it going with the epic code, music, lightshow, you become fully immersed.
One of those games you need to get a really big game going, and by the end of it, you just feel good.
And if you can build up the unlimited multiplier to a high level, your heart WILL start beating quicker!
But, have a few low scoring games and like a lot of pins, easy to walk away and think 'meh'.
My prediction is that LZ will gather a bigger following as the years go by.
But, equally it might not
I'll say; work had got into the habit of buying multiples of each new WMS game, often three, but four and five in the case of Addams and Getaway respectively. That came to a crashing halt after Popeye, which we did have three of. Indy 500, Whodunnit, Dirty Harry, Champion Pub, Jackbot, Congo and others were passed over. One landlord, at a first-line site, queried if a game coming in was new (as usual), and on being told No ended up calling the boss to hear why.
Stern won’t lower prices, neither will JJP.
Just wait and see the Pinside feeding frenzy when Jaws is released.
Manufacturers are targeting retired dudes with big pensions!
Just wait and see the Pinside feeding frenzy when Jaws is released.
Manufacturers are targeting retired dudes with big pensions!
