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“oyez, oyez, oyez “ The end is nigh!

Colywobbles

Colywobbles

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Nov 9, 2016
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Sunderland
Alias
Billy Big B*llocks
Taking the serious discussion from the Venom thread and in response to @Richpin

@Richpin you sound just as disillusioned as me with NIB pins.
Each new cornerstone title has cost more and gave much less. The simple truth is Stern don’t give a feck about the community they just rely on our passion and FOMO to keep the shareholders happy.
The more we moan the more they don’t give a feck but relentlessly just keep churning out this never ending money tree they have perfected.
Times are changing and people like mylelf are waking upto reality.
Having fire sales on lemons is not the solution in fact it puts me off even buying that said Lemon.
Trying to fool yourself by saying code will rescue a pin or turn it into another holy grail is nonsense!
It’s happened twice with BM66 and SThings but those had decent layouts some funky mechs and in the case of ST the IP, UV and typical well loved fan layout equally saved the day.
Can you say this about Venom! I get superhero’s like Spider-Man, Batman, Superman etc but some weird niche alter ego characters I don’t understand nor even want too just doesn’t interest me.
The solution is not for me to think up but in an ideal world Stern would need to scrap the baron Pro! Give up totally on the LE as that has now became uneconomical and not really limited anyway just look at Elvira, JP and whatever they deem is the next best anniversary or diamond edt.
A bit like BOF make one pin for all and sell the extras like mods.
Personally I’m done with NIB and going back to my roots and revisiting the classics due to the downturn in the market.

Next time you thinking of buying a pin just ask yourself “where is the smart money at?”
That is unless you like throwing away 2-4k each NIB
 
I'm not in favour of 1 model only for sterns. I like having a cheaper option. I've got 4 pros, 2 prems and I'm quite happy with the pros for the money saved. My prems are Elvira, no pro available and Jp, JP I'd be quite happy with the pro, I only got the prem because Phil sold out of pros when I was looking.

I'm out of space now so the problem for nib for me is that I have to believe it will be better than something I have. With 6 games it's easy to give 1 a rest for a while if I get bored with it but still like it. 4/6 I can't see going anywhere, anytime soon and 1 would take something really special to swap. So that really only leaves 1 I'm willing to part with atm and that means waiting to see something special.
 
Jib said:
I'm out of space now so the problem for nib for me is that I have to believe it will be better than something I have. With 6 games it's easy to give 1 a rest for a while if I get bored with it but still like it. 4/6 I can't see going anywhere, anytime soon and 1 would take something really special to swap. So that really only leaves 1 I'm willing to part with atm and that means waiting to see something special.
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Yeah, this is the issue… I’ve got 7 pins here, 3 that I got NIB. One of those is the remake of a cult classic designed almost a decade ago now. The other two are Elwins and widely regarded as among the best pins of all time.

I’ve also got a selection of vintage classics, including pins that have remained beloved by players for 30-40 years. These include AFM, an Alien Poker undergoing restoration and my Fish Tales, which I love due to its horrific brutality (I’ve nicknamed it “the murder machine”).

My final slot is being used to rotate tournament staples.

So, if I want to get a new NIB game, it has to be better than Godzilla/JP2/AFM, or be doing something so radically different from TNA that I want to swap.

What’s the likelihood that any given new pin will do that? Actually, really, really low unless Elwin delivers a total blinder on Jaws.
 
VeeMonroe said:
Yeah, this is the issue… I’ve got 7 pins here, 3 that I got NIB. One of those is the remake of a cult classic designed almost a decade ago now. The other two are Elwins and widely regarded as among the best pins of all time.

I’ve also got a selection of vintage classics, including pins that have remained beloved by players for 30-40 years. These include AFM, an Alien Poker undergoing restoration and my Fish Tales, which I love due to its horrific brutality (I’ve nicknamed it “the murder machine”).

My final slot is being used to rotate tournament staples.

So, if I want to get a new NIB game, it has to be better than Godzilla/JP2/AFM, or be doing something so radically different from TNA that I want to swap.

What’s the likelihood that any given new pin will do that? Actually, really, really low unless Elwin delivers a total blinder on Jaws.
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For me a new Pin doesn't necessarily have to be 'better' than what I've got, just appealing enough for me to want a change.

I can't imagine owning a Pin for for more than 2 years, do you not see yourself getting a bit bored of your current line up?
 
Marvello said:
I can't imagine owning a Pin for for more than 2 years, do you not see yourself getting a bit bored of your current line up?
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I’ve owned Fishy for more than 2 years now...

I play a lot of pinball on location. We live within cycling distance of Funland and Pinball Republic, and a shortish train journey from both the Medway Pinball Club and The Pinball Office.

Everything now in our house I’d played tens of times *before* I bought my own copy, and I chose the pins as being the ones I played regularly already. The intention was to buy stuff I wanted to play daily so, when I went on location, I’d play other pins. If I only had an hour at Funland, for example, I used to play JP2 solid for an hour and just ignore everything else. Now I own a JP2, I play it daily and, when I go to Funland, I orbit around the other pins.

We do have a ‘rotator’ slot now, which is for familiarising myself with machines and practicing rulesets. Some of the stuff I’m interested in putting in the rotator slot, I’m worried gets ‘stuck’ (i.e. I don’t want to get rid of it). This is especially the case with classics. Half of my Top 30 favourite pins are 1980s or earlier, and I’m worried - if they come in - I won’t want to rotate them out again.

Obviously, for me to go NIB again now, I’d need to have regular access to a pin released in the last year, and then play it enough to be sure it fired something I already own. That’s a very tall order - I’d already played Godzilla forty times on location by the time I ordered my own Prem.
 
I've started to think of Stern's a little differently now. Until recently I'd considered them to by poor value because I was getting poor value in the UK.

Their poorly built and very stripped down, but I was comparing them to everything else. I guess I thought of them as a Mercedes and JJP as a Rolls Royce but I'd got it all wrong.

Stern are cheap as fish & chips . . . they basically make the cheap pinball machines so, realistically who cares if they weigh nothing, have crap end stops and rusty balls?

Stern aren't Mercedes . . . they're Kia or Hyundai . . . unfortunately by the time Stern pins arrive in the UK they are crazy money.

I had one guy on a video openly call me a liar for suggesting the top level Scooby was cheaper than a Stern Premium and that Pulp Fiction was less than a Stern Pro.
There was another guy who had a Bond LE tell me that he'd have liked a Lebowski but it was too expensive so he went for the Stern LE instead.

Put simply, because Stern are so expensive in the UK I compare them to packed pinball machines and they come up short in terms of monetary value.

But why should Stern give a damn about the UK market? As far as they're concerned they make cheap ass pinball machines at the best price point.


However, for me it means I would buy them anymore. I'll buy DP's next game and Pulp Fiction and possibly whatever CGC or AP do after. Most likely I'll get a Bally/Williams though.

Screenshot (44).jpg
 
Not only about losing money, it’s about being looked after if there are issues and not getting one word email replies🤷‍♂️
Not sure I can be bothered again, would love a Pulp Fiction too but……………...
 
Marvello said:
For me a new Pin doesn't necessarily have to be 'better' than what I've got, just appealing enough for me to want a change.

I can't imagine owning a Pin for for more than 2 years, do you not see yourself getting a bit bored of your current line up?
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I played Deadpool last night and got my second highest score ever. I play it all the time and just don't get bored despite having it for over three years. Batman 66 also never bores me and I never tired of playing TOM despite playing it regularly for 15 years.

For me, keepers can just be played time and time again.
 
The VAT, Dollar rate and shipping doesnt help. If the price to us was the same as in America it wouldnt be as bad. Although the cost of NIB is totaly unaffordable for me.

Stern are doing what they have always done, look at the late 2000, early packed machines, that with every release got less and less, it was only Jersey JAck WOZ that changed things, otherwise we would be having Stern home editions, sold a Pro, premiums as LE and LE''s as something else, super collectors edtion or something.

Hopefully with Dutch pinball, Pinball Brothers, Barrels of fun and others competition will force them to re-evalute what they put out, so at least the games will be more packed. The price unfortuently I doubt will change unless the Dollars falls. The UK market is tiny, so they won't give a """. It wil take Electro coin to decide enough is enough and stop buying the large up front quantities Stern require any distro to purchase. Now there other players in the market, with two in Europe there are alternatives. However if people are buying, which we don't really know, as they don't puplish how many machines sold, it will continue as it is.

based upon for sale adverts being up for a while and things don't seem to be selling (at least publicly) the market seems to be cooling and will have to adjust, only time will tell, whether it will.

£12k + is a hard sell to the wife thats new kitchen, new small car money, if it continues it will turn into a rich persons only hobby, soon all the gains made from people buying old machines cheap in the past will be lost and those people will also no longer be able to afford them.
 
? I is confusalled
Pinball is not an investment, that some games have made some money, has just been a matter of luck/timing. Just be glad you made a few $$
Nobody is forcing you to buy every NIB. 13 years ago when I bought my first NIB, there was a choice of Stern, Stern or Stern, and one base model. 2008 was Batman, Indiana Jones and CSI, two duds and a 'B' list game

Now we have so much choice, most games are good/great (very few bad games), and that is not good enough?
 
It’s an interesting discussion, but you have to remember what the fundamental purpose of a commercial machine is for; making the manufacturers money and making the operators money. The collector market began when we started to buy up the old games from operators and put them in our garages. Then the addiction starts to take hold. It’s typical human nature in a capitalist society.

Stern and all the other manufacturers have simply started to build games to cater for collectors as well as operators, it’s not their fault, they made what collectors wanted, smart move, and it’s probably the main reason they continue to thrive. It’s all down to perspective, some people can afford to buy all the new LEs and most can’t, but that’s not Sterns concern. Is there enough wealthy collectors to buy all the LEs? Just about. Personally I’m out on any LE, i just don’t see the value, particularly at todays prices. Let’s say for arguments sake that the LE market was dead. The manufacturers would have to downsize and sell pros and premiums to the commercial market and a handful of home users.

Traditionally you simply wouldn’t have the opportunity to buy a NIB arcade machine unless you were pretty wealthy, the same is true now, and if you are doing well for yourself and you can afford a new pinball machine, good for you. Now, we have a situation where disposable incomes have been squeezed thanks to the rising costs enforced upon us by the reptilian community, (in jest) who want to take away the common hard working man’s spare cash. So we are left in a situation of our own doing, we bought and we spent and we ate at the banquet, now the market has to have a reset as it looks like it can’t go anywhere else. The numbers of those able to fork out are dwindling. Whos fault is it? The collectors, we created the rise and we have also created the fall. I will always try to be careful what I buy, but I’ll lose on some games, it’s just the way it is. The answer is never overpay for something if you can help it. The other answer is to get the games working for you, make them earn their keep, get them out earning money as they were supposed to do, we have the means and the machines to make a few quid.

The recent fire sale is proof to myself that I must wait and see with any new games as it’s clear the prices have gotten too high. I bought a Godzilla NIB on the very first run and as luck would have it, I paid the going rate, it’s still in the box and it won’t be opened until I have means to make it work to pay itself off. This reset is actually a silver lining for the collector. The second hand market goes down and the manufacturers have to work harder to get sales. If you’re lucky enough to have some pinball machines at home then think yourself blessed you have something to enjoy and a physical asset which is going to hold value, long term. Short term gains in value are over for the time being.

At the end of the day, it’s a wooden box with some steel balls in it, not gold bullion.
This market will sort the clever companies from the dumb, it’s going to be survival of the fittest. Stern are the ones who will have to change the most, they are now simply too large not to sell games. If I were them, having just moved to a huge new premises in a time of decline, i would be concerned I had bitten off a bit more than I could chew, you can already see evidence of that, revisiting older titles to keep the lines running, perhaps they didn’t think the boom would ever end.

Interesting times, but I’m sure the old timers will have been here before.
 
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There’s a ceiling price for everything.

I can’t think of a single theme that I would want to spent over 10 grand on let alone 13+.

Others will value things differently but to me it’s simply not worth it. I’ve already tied up an insane amount in games but these prices just feel like a step too far. To be honest I would feel extremely selfish spending that much on a toy for myself.

I’ve only ever bought 4 NIBs. Each time felt like a gamble as you never really knew what you’d get. TWD wasn’t great as a game until they reworked the code. It could easily have become another Munsters.

I’m honestly amazed that new people are drawn into the hobby. I took ages to commit to buying my first game at around £500 and now people are seeing starter machines at 4 grand.

There’s lots of great games currently coming out but being brutally honest a lot of manufacturers aren’t going to still be around in 5 years time.
 
Marvello said:
Not quite sure what your plan is with this?
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Yes, personally, if I had a first-run NIB Godzilla that was still in the box, I’d either sell it. Or get it out the box and play it (and make a plan for getting it on location while enjoying the game).

If you’ve got enough room to long-term store a pinball machine in a box, you’ve probably got enough room to put it on display.

There isn’t going to be a massive second-hand market for mint-in-box Godzillas, from what I can see. This is a pin where most people who wanted them new have got one, and everyone else is waiting for lightly-used second hand.
 
VeeMonroe said:
Yes, personally, if I had a first-run NIB Godzilla that was still in the box, I’d either sell it. Or get it out the box and play it (and make a plan for getting it on location while enjoying the game).

If you’ve got enough room to long-term store a pinball machine in a box, you’ve probably got enough room to put it on display.

There isn’t going to be a massive second-hand market for mint-in-box Godzillas, from what I can see. This is a pin where most people who wanted them new have got one, and everyone else is waiting for lightly-used second hand.
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Indeed, everyone has got one. The only way I can justify owning such an expensive item is to get it to pay for itself. At the moment I’m not ready to get it out.
 
Monkeyboypaul said:
Same parent company!

…and their warranties are miles better than Stern, and most other car manufacturers.

<< Kia Shield deactivated >>
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Thanks for the update Paul.

I wasn't really talking about the semantics. Swap the example for another manufacturer of low priced cars if you would prefer.

My point is they're cheap in the US but sold at Mercedes prices in the UK.
 
Gonzo said:
I've started to think of Stern's a little differently now. Until recently I'd considered them to by poor value because I was getting poor value in the UK.

Their poorly built and very stripped down, but I was comparing them to everything else. I guess I thought of them as a Mercedes and JJP as a Rolls Royce but I'd got it all wrong.

Stern are cheap as fish & chips . . . they basically make the cheap pinball machines so, realistically who cares if they weigh nothing, have crap end stops and rusty balls?

Stern aren't Mercedes . . . they're Kia or Hyundai . . . unfortunately by the time Stern pins arrive in the UK they are crazy money.

I had one guy on a video openly call me a liar for suggesting the top level Scooby was cheaper than a Stern Premium and that Pulp Fiction was less than a Stern Pro.
There was another guy who had a Bond LE tell me that he'd have liked a Lebowski but it was too expensive so he went for the Stern LE instead.

Put simply, because Stern are so expensive in the UK I compare them to packed pinball machines and they come up short in terms of monetary value.

But why should Stern give a damn about the UK market? As far as they're concerned they make cheap ass pinball machines at the best price point.


However, for me it means I would buy them anymore. I'll buy DP's next game and Pulp Fiction and possibly whatever CGC or AP do after. Most likely I'll get a Bally/Williams though.

View attachment 236249
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I would take crazylevi with a pinch of salt, I’m sure he’s in Sterns pocket somehow or maybe just their no.1 fan as he defends everything they do regardless of how cheap it is. He rarely believes problems reported by end users even when half of Pinside is reporting the same issue.
 
I really don't understand the moaning about pinball prices. If you think it's too expensive, then don't buy it. Do the sensible thing and vote with your feet.

Stern charge what they can because people buy games without playing them and sometimes without even seeing them! As long as people keep paying silly prices stern will keep charging silly prices. Most Stern games are amazing (with the exception of AIQ) and bring so much joy to many. It's a matter of choice. These really are first world problems.

It does however look like things are changing and as John said above, everything has a ceiling. It's a crazy hobby full of crazy people but do you know what, 'Hey, it's only pinball'.
 
Jumping off from Pete's thoughts, if Venom was released 15 years ago, it would be considered one of Sterns best games, things have moved on and the margins between 'good' and 'dud' games has decreased significantly, to the point I would say its no longer possible to buy a bad new game. Although I wouldn't have Batman down as a 'Dud' there Pete ;)

I was a little surprised looking back at Sterns historic pricing on pro models, other than increasing with inflation, they haven't really increased significantly and in that time art and code have improved, so it could be argued they are better value.

Venom just isn't a theme that appeals, so its hard to judge if its a 'dud' or just a poorly timed between Dangers great first effort and Elwins next big thing, but a sale on one new game and a few US discounts on 3+ year old games, isn't a sign of the end.

That being said there is now plenty of competition and disposable income has decreased, the days of buying a new game playing and selling on months later for a few hundred less are over, but NIB games should command a decent premium over used examples? For the extra money your dealing with an established company rather than an individual, safer payment and can use a credit card, easy delivery, warranty and its in a box all shiny and new.

But Stern will need to react to these new economic realities, we may be a small market, but there's no way any manufacturer would give up while there is still a profit (albeit smaller) to be made.
What sort of discount is needed to get people back onboard the NIB train, 10% drop across the board? should be possible with Stern and EC sharing the hit.
 
Tier 1: 6,495 - 6,995
Tier 2: 8,495 - 8,995
Tier 3: 9,495 - 9,995

For context my deposit is down for PF BMF @ 9,695
 
kev a said:
Jumping off from Pete's thoughts, if Venom was released 15 years ago, it would be considered one of Sterns best games, things have moved on and the margins between 'good' and 'dud' games has decreased significantly, to the point I would say its no longer possible to buy a bad new game. Although I wouldn't have Batman down as a 'Dud' there Pete ;)
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I’m not sure that’s true, to be honest.

15 years ago was 2008. In the years before then, Stern had made Austin Powers, Lord of the Rings, Ripley’s Believe it or Not, Pirates of the Caribbean, Spiderman, Simpson’s Pinball Party and Wheel of Fortune. Within a couple of years, they were on a roll making Tron Legacy, Iron Man, Avatar and - later - AC/DC…

Having also played such (non-Stern) gems as The Jetsons, Thunderbirds, Hollywood Heat and This is Spinal Tap, if you like pinball, there is no such thing as a truly *bad* pinball machine. Given the choice between taking This is Spinal Tap to a desert island and being on a desert island without a pin, I would 100% go for the pin!

Stern has released some real LCD-era clunkers. Or, at least, some machines that - in a few years - will be regarded as total clunkers by the vast majority of people. There will always be people who madly adore any pinball machine, regardless, as evidenced by the countless mixed flags/upvotes on my Pinside reviews. All these things are relatively subjective…
 
What did pinballs cost 20 years ago? Can anybody say what the price of a Lord Of The Rings was when released in 2003?

I've heard £4000 but actually I don't know.

Putting £4000 into the Bank of England's Inflation Calculator gives £6991 in today's money.

Or the same as the Venom on the 7K offer.
 
JWG9999 said:
What did pinballs cost 20 years ago? Can anybody say what the price of a Lord Of The Rings was when released in 2003?
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Having owned a Lord of the Rings, the build quality is about 10x higher than a modern Stern, and it’s absolutely stacked in terms of toys/bits ‘n pieces. It’s much more akin to Spooky’s Scooby Doo than a modern Stern.
 
Yes, @VeeMonroe I knew I'd get that response!

And you're totally right. I'm just trying to get a handle on the true price rises.

Take another old pin then - World Poker Tour - which was released around the same time and presumably the same price.

I have WPT and I love it, but maybe some people would prefer the Venom.
 
JWG9999 said:
What did pinballs cost 20 years ago? Can anybody say what the price of a Lord Of The Rings was when released in 2003?

I've heard £4000 but actually I don't know.

Putting £4000 into the Bank of England's Inflation Calculator gives £6991 in today's money.

Or the same as the Venom on the 7K offer.
Click to expand...

Oct'03 - Austin Powers was a couple of years old and listed on Pinball Heaven as £2,995 inc. vat

1698663553216.png
 
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