What's new
Pinball info

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

UKCS 2019 Finals...

DanLewell

DanLewell

Registered
Joined
Jul 21, 2011
Messages
1,041
Location
Northampton, UK
I know we haven't even had the UKCS finals for 2018 but I'm starting this thread for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, the UKCS champion gets an automatic place at ECS Final, but this year because the UKCS final isn't until after the ECS final the UK has missed out on having this place. So going forwards I've been asked if we can pick a date that is earlier in the year and get everything sorted in time to make sure this doesn't happen again.

This bit is fairly easy, I'll put the date in the calendar and then anyone who interested in UKCS (or ECS) will know in advance when the finals will be and be able to plan nearly a year in advance to make sure they are available. We don't know for sure who the qualifiers will be until the end of December, but I don't think there were many changes to the top 20 as a result of the final December comps. Tournament whores like me will have already entered 20+ comps to squeeze our way in and the good players who are interested will have entered enough comps earlier in the year to secure their places as well.

I'm also looking for a venue to host UKCS finals next year. It should be a northern venue if possible to move it around the country fairly, so if you are up North and interested in hosting please get in touch.

The second reason for the thread is that I thought it would be good to have a discussion about the format. A few people have declined this year because of the format or mentioned that they don't feel the format is the best for working out who is the best of the best in the UK. I haven't checked this with Greg yet so I might get shot down for suggesting it, but I think now is probably a good time to work out what we want from the UKCS Finals. So, assuming we are allowed to change it, what would people like the format of the finals to be? We obviously wont please everyone, but if we get some good ideas that most people are happy with, then this discussion can't be a bad thing can it?
 
Good on you Dan for doing this.

I only went to a couple of these last year so am extremely unlikely to be in the running and can be reasonably impartial.

I think you need to pick a format that achieves two things

1. Is likely to yield the strongest (4) players in the final. The strongest players like seeding for this reason
2. Gives enough Pinball so the Cannon fodder players that drive for hours get a decent amount of games before they are eliminated

I would suggest the Shine format. Where there is a league component that seeds players 1 to 16 on the day.

This on the day seeding is added to the 12 month seeding generated by the UKCS events to give a composite seeding for some sort of knock out final.

If you are struggling for a venue, you can use mine but remember that I am extremely unlikely to have any Stern machines
 
DanLewell said:
I haven't checked this with Greg yet so I might get shot down for suggesting it, but I think now is probably a good time to work out what we want from the UKCS Finals.
Click to expand...

Absolutely fine with me Dan. You're in charge of UKCS now anyway!:) And always good to get ideas on changes which help improve comps.

When Craig and I first set up UKCS we just copied the format in the US version and I know Craig liked the brutal/sudden death element. As you know we introduced the loser bracket to counter some feedback that you could go out after just one game but also always tried to have another comp running over the weekend so at least the journey wasn't totally wasted for those who did exit early. And it is a different format to any other UK comp which is always refreshing but ultimately if players would prefer a different format then best to change and definitely worth investigating.
 
Does the UKCS finals have to be played in the UK?

Just sayin' cos I bloody love away days abroad!

I know it's not practical!!
 
thelab said:
Does the UKCS finals have to be played in the UK?

Just sayin' cos I bloody love away days abroad!

I know it's not practical!!
Click to expand...

So if we all stick a pin in the back of the car and drive to say Iceland and hold it at the side of a Volcano, you're saying that counts as North for you? If you organise it Vin, I'll try to get there.
 
DanLewell said:
I know we haven't even had the UKCS finals for 2018 but I'm starting this thread for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, the UKCS champion gets an automatic place at ECS Final, but this year because the UKCS final isn't until after the ECS final the UK has missed out on having this place. So going forwards I've been asked if we can pick a date that is earlier in the year and get everything sorted in time to make sure this doesn't happen again.

This bit is fairly easy, I'll put the date in the calendar and then anyone who interested in UKCS (or ECS) will know in advance when the finals will be and be able to plan nearly a year in advance to make sure they are available. We don't know for sure who the qualifiers will be until the end of December, but I don't think there were many changes to the top 20 as a result of the final December comps. Tournament whores like me will have already entered 20+ comps to squeeze our way in and the good players who are interested will have entered enough comps earlier in the year to secure their places as well.

I'm also looking for a venue to host UKCS finals next year. It should be a northern venue if possible to move it around the country fairly, so if you are up North and interested in hosting please get in touch.

The second reason for the thread is that I thought it would be good to have a discussion about the format. A few people have declined this year because of the format or mentioned that they don't feel the format is the best for working out who is the best of the best in the UK. I haven't checked this with Greg yet so I might get shot down for suggesting it, but I think now is probably a good time to work out what we want from the UKCS Finals. So, assuming we are allowed to change it, what would people like the format of the finals to be? We obviously wont please everyone, but if we get some good ideas that most people are happy with, then this discussion can't be a bad thing can it?
Click to expand...

As a (very rough) format, how about if everybody plays each other in a head to head game - machines pre chosen (Top seed starts on machine one and moves down the line). So that would be 19 matches per person, the 4 with the most wins (ties decided on head to head results) go into a final round of 3 head to head matches to decide the winner. You could add a benefit to the top 3 seeds by giving them bonus wins before the tourney starts (so top seed starts with 3 wins, 2nd with 2 and 3rd with 1) to give them an advantage for their qualifying efforts.
 
mufcmufc said:
So if we all stick a pin in the back of the car and drive to say Iceland and hold it at the side of a Volcano, you're saying that counts as North for you? If you organise it Vin, I'll try to get there.
Click to expand...

Haha, now that would be awesome! I was thinking Dutch Pin Museum or similar, but I was drunk as usual and know it's not a practical option!
 
mufcmufc said:
As a (very rough) format, how about if everybody plays each other in a head to head game - machines pre chosen (Top seed starts on machine one and moves down the line). So that would be 19 matches per person, the 4 with the most wins (ties decided on head to head results) go into a final round of 3 head to head matches to decide the winner. You could add a benefit to the top 3 seeds by giving them bonus wins before the tourney starts (so top seed starts with 3 wins, 2nd with 2 and 3rd with 1) to give them an advantage for their qualifying efforts.
Click to expand...

I like this idea.

Would have thought you'd need more than 6 machines though both for variety of games played if you're going to end up playing between 38 and 57 games and also to make things run smoothly, you would need a venue with 12+ machines as at any one time, you'd have 10 matches going and need spares in case of breakdowns and spares between swap overs.

Would be fun and give everyone a good amount of game time. Might take a while given the number of matches and you'd have to wait between matches for your next opponent at times. Might be tough to fit in one day.

Also agree you need to give some benefit to the higher qualifiers but to more IMO. Maybe something like


1st 5wins
2-5 4 wins
6-9 3 wins
10-13 2 wins
14-17 1 win

Personally would prefer play off for a tie as looking back at head to heard result always seems a bit unfair as that match then counts double.

Got loads of time to agree on a format so hopefully there can be lots of suggestions and then see what's most popular.
 
I definitely agree that the format needs looking at.

robotgreg said:
When Craig and I first set up UKCS we just copied the format in the US version
Click to expand...

Haven't they now changed the format of the SCS finals? Presumably because of the same complaints we've seen with regard to the format.

There's a discussion here:
http://tiltforums.com/t/for-your-consideration-a-proposed-scs-pcs-format/3537
regarding proposed formats.

Regarding seeding on the day, do you want to give a benefit to players who have done well throughout the year, or just use the annual results as qualifying and everyone starts equal on the day? How strong a benefit do you want to give people? I don't think that too many people are attending events to try and finish higher in the qualifying to get a benefit, and I don't think anything outside of significant cash prizes would change that anyway.

Initially it was proposed that every comp that was eligible for the UKCS would donate £1 per entrant to a prize pool to be used for the UKCS. I don't think this ever came to fruition due to a number of reasons, mainly that so many of the larger comps in the UK are ran for charity and that very few comps offer any kind of prize money, let alone enough to be able to take a rake out of.

We have to accept that until there is a major sponsor prepared to input significant amounts of money to try and promote competitive pinball play, or we increase comp entries to £30+ per player and/or adopt a more US style pump and dump format to increase prize pots there's not going to be the same financial motivation as in the US for people to travel across the country.
The number of players who are prepared, and able, to travel all over the country AND put in entrance fees over £30 is very small, as can be seen from previous attempts I have tried to get something like that off the ground.

So there has to be other motivation for (the more average) people to play in competitions, plenty of guaranteed games before getting knocked out, the outside chance of a trophy, good atmosphere, good games, etc. etc.

Personally I'd set it up like this:
16 players qualify
8+ games available to play, preferably a range of eras.

Qualifying round
Everyone plays 8 games league style scoring, but with the overall annual results counting as a 9th game also.
This will then produce the seeding for the next round.

First knockout round played as best of 5 seeded (1 v 16, 2 v 15, etc.) on predetermined games (Seed 1 plays on machine 1 for 1st game, machine 2 for next, etc.) Higher seed chooses position for first game then alternate.

Second knockout round played same as first round

Final 4 players then play final over 3 games PAPA style

Everyone is guaranteed a minimum of 11 games, winner will play between 17 and 21 games (depending on how the knockouts go), earning 96% TGP for WPPRs
 
Yeah I liked the original concept, brutality, fact that you earn your spot and thought that it would be cool to have a different format than any other comp in the UK at the time.

But I also agree that perhaps the format has run its course since there have been so many changes in competitive pinball since we first started the UKCS.

I'd be up for any of the suggestions, more pinball is always better
 
Wayne J said:
I definitely agree that the format needs looking at.



Haven't they now changed the format of the SCS finals? Presumably because of the same complaints we've seen with regard to the format.

There's a discussion here:
http://tiltforums.com/t/for-your-consideration-a-proposed-scs-pcs-format/3537
regarding proposed formats.

Quite possibly, not really followed it since!!

Regarding seeding on the day, do you want to give a benefit to players who have done well throughout the year, or just use the annual results as qualifying and everyone starts equal on the day? How strong a benefit do you want to give people? I don't think that too many people are attending events to try and finish higher in the qualifying to get a benefit, and I don't think anything outside of significant cash prizes would change that anyway.

Initially it was proposed that every comp that was eligible for the UKCS would donate £1 per entrant to a prize pool to be used for the UKCS. I don't think this ever came to fruition due to a number of reasons, mainly that so many of the larger comps in the UK are ran for charity and that very few comps offer any kind of prize money, let alone enough to be able to take a rake out of.

We have to accept that until there is a major sponsor prepared to input significant amounts of money to try and promote competitive pinball play, or we increase comp entries to £30+ per player and/or adopt a more US style pump and dump format to increase prize pots there's not going to be the same financial motivation as in the US for people to travel across the country.
The number of players who are prepared, and able, to travel all over the country AND put in entrance fees over £30 is very small, as can be seen from previous attempts I have tried to get something like that off the ground.

So there has to be other motivation for (the more average) people to play in competitions, plenty of guaranteed games before getting knocked out, the outside chance of a trophy, good atmosphere, good games, etc. etc.

Agree I don't think money is a key motivator for most players in UK.

Personally I'd set it up like this:
16 players qualify
8+ games available to play, preferably a range of eras.

Qualifying round
Everyone plays 8 games league style scoring, but with the overall annual results counting as a 9th game also.
This will then produce the seeding for the next round.

First knockout round played as best of 5 seeded (1 v 16, 2 v 15, etc.) on predetermined games (Seed 1 plays on machine 1 for 1st game, machine 2 for next, etc.) Higher seed chooses position for first game then alternate.

Second knockout round played same as first round

Final 4 players then play final over 3 games PAPA style

Everyone is guaranteed a minimum of 11 games, winner will play between 17 and 21 games (depending on how the knockouts go), earning 96% TGP for WPPRs
Click to expand...

When I ran the Welsh Classic for Dave Rolfe, we did something similar where your initial qualifying position counted as game 1 and you played 3 more games to determine a top 4, league style format.

Personally I like the idea of a different format to league style qualifying as we already have this format for the league finals. Furthermore, maybe 1 game of 9 does not give enough weight to your qualifying position over the year.
 
Wayne J said:
I don't think that too many people are attending events to try and finish higher in the qualifying to get a benefit, and I don't think anything outside of significant cash prizes would change that anyway.

Initially it was proposed that every comp that was eligible for the UKCS would donate £1 per entrant to a prize pool to be used for the UKCS. I don't think this ever came to fruition due to a number of reasons, mainly that so many of the larger comps in the UK are ran for charity and that very few comps offer any kind of prize money, let alone enough to be able to take a rake out of.
Click to expand...

That's another element that I didn't put at the top that we need to consider. Prize Money. At the minute there are small cash prizes for each of the knockout rounds and then prizes for the top 4, but this means that after trophies and nibbles there is very little left for the host. Previously there was a 2nd comp run at the same time which boosted the available funds to give to the host as a thank you for hosting.

Last year Matt ran a separate comp to boost funds for Flip Out, and this year there is a separate comp being run (by Matt again) for Shine. But it means there is very little left as a thank you to @Tilt_Birmingham for kindly hosting.

Do we really need the cash prizes? is anyone motivated by them in any way? Obviously too late for this year as its been advertised but going forwards, are we are better off giving more to the host as a thank you (no one is going to get rich here by the way, we aren't talking huge sums) and shrinking the prize pool?
 
robotgreg said:
Personally I like the idea of a different format to league style qualifying as we already have this format for the league finals. Furthermore, maybe 1 game of 9 does not give enough weight to your qualifying position over the year.
Click to expand...
Could always have the first 2 hrs as a Flip Frenzy style, with seeding based on that instead.
Or reduce the no. of games in league style to 4, so that annual qualifying has more of an impact.
 
DanLewell said:
That's another element that I didn't put at the top that we need to consider. Prize Money. At the minute there are small cash prizes for each of the knockout rounds and then prizes for the top 4, but this means that after trophies and nibbles there is very little left for the host. Previously there was a 2nd comp run at the same time which boosted the available funds to give to the host as a thank you for hosting.

Last year Matt ran a separate comp to boost funds for Flip Out, and this year there is a separate comp being run (by Matt again) for Shine. But it means there is very little left as a thank you to @Tilt_Birmingham for kindly hosting.

Do we really need the cash prizes? is anyone motivated by them in any way? Obviously too late for this year as its been advertised but going forwards, are we are better off giving more to the host as a thank you (no one is going to get rich here by the way, we aren't talking huge sums) and shrinking the prize pool?
Click to expand...

Whenever I have won vouchers or cash, it's always been put towards drinks for everyone, so I'm not interested in prize money and feel that the host or a charity is always more deserving than winning a pin comp.

A trophy is more than ample, and I know of a recent winner of a cash prize tourney specifically say to the organiser that he would much prefer a trophy instead and even offered to hand the money back in return for one!

However! If we can get Red Bull involved to sponsor an event, that could be very interesting indeed!
 
in what ever format, it needs to be player vs player in my view.

I'd also like to see the qualifying rounds be named upfront as part of a circuit so people can plan for them if they want.

I personally think money is a red herring, If 20 people are going the odds are against 15 of them.

Cheers,
Neil.
 
Neil McRae said:
I'd also like to see the qualifying rounds be named upfront as part of a circuit so people can plan for them if they want.
Click to expand...
The qualifying events are ALL events listed in the UK during the year, which are submitted to the IFPA (where there is already a calendar at least 30 days in advance). Exactly the same as the SCS in the beloved US of A.
 
I would be happy with either of Nick or Waynes suggestions for format. Just would prefer a more 'fleshed out' format for such an event. Not fussed about cash prizes. I would expect the event will look after the venue with additional bar takings when the pinball tribe arrive in town! Phil gets nothing and yet is a great supporter of charities and comps.
 
I quite like the format - it's exciting when a player stays in for a long time against the odds - sort of like the royal rumble - and the unique format wouldn't work for any other tournament, because of the ginormous advantage to the higher seeds. It can be a long way to travel for only two games (as I managed to do last year), especially if you enter as a low seed, and the odds are stacked against you from the start - though this is mittigated by a decent quality side comp.

Not bothered by the cash prizes, and wouldn't notice if they were gone - I basically pay no attention to what these are on any tournament i've entered.
 
Neil McRae said:
in what ever format, it needs to be player vs player in my view.

I'd also like to see the qualifying rounds be named upfront as part of a circuit so people can plan for them if they want.

I personally think money is a red herring, If 20 people are going the odds are against 15 of them.

Cheers,
Neil.
Click to expand...

Would be nice for the upcoming qualifying rounds to named upfront... Maybe six months in advanced, then gives everyone ample time to plan around work and family life...

How does a competition/tournament qualify to be counted towards the UKCS and whom makes that decision?

Surely defining x amount of comps per UKCS year and best x amount counts... Therefore everyone is on the same page
 
Tilt_Birmingham said:
Would be nice for the upcoming qualifying rounds to named upfront... Maybe six months in advanced, then gives everyone ample time to plan around work and family life...

How does a competition/tournament qualify to be counted towards the UKCS and whom makes that decision?

Surely defining x amount of comps per UKCS year and best x amount counts... Therefore everyone is on the same page
Click to expand...
As far as I understand, every UK tournament that qualifies for WPPR is included and your best 12 results count top 20 qualify.
 
Yeah, any tournament that offers wppr points count and the best X results count towards qualification. See table below taken from ifpa website.

Screenshot_20190128-073737_Chrome.jpg

It would be nice if people knew when the events were in advance so they can plan for them, and the calendar thread that @DRD started will help with that, maybe we can put UKCS next to the weekends that will be holding qualifying events. And if anyone is planing on holding an event, if they could check the dates in that thread and book the weekend for theirs in as early as possible then people will be able to plan more easily.

It's unlikely that everyone will be able to make all events, which is why it is best X results that count, so if you can only make about half of them you aren't disadvantaged.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom