Solved! Segasa Casino Royale (Williams) EM coin unit issue

jimkounter

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Good evening fellow pinball aficionados. I'm completely new to pinball ownership and have dived in at the deep end by purchasing an EM machine. The game is a Segasa Casino Royale and apart from dodgy lamp holders is in fairly good working condition. However, the game is stuck on single player mode. I can manually cycle the Williams coin unit and then it happily plays multiplayer games with the player unit cycling properly. The issue is that the coin unit cycling coil isn't firing when hitting the player start button. Each time you press the player start it resets the coin unit. I have confirmed that the coin cycle coil works by jumping the supply to it. I'm assuming it's an issue with one of the relays but I'm drawing a blank. I'd not expect it to fire the coin reset each time I press the player start button. Any ideas what's going wrong?
 

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DanLewell

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Schematic was attached in the first post.

I'm following this one because i want to learn how to fix EMs bit unfortunately cant offer much help at the minute.

There are a few em experts (@Biff , @DAD and others) on here though so I'm sure they will chip in soon.
 

AlanJ

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the part of the circuit will be called something like the “coin unit s.u.”. coin unit step up relay. and this typically triggered by a coin relay switch closing, a switch closing as the score motor turns around and maybe something like a reset relay switch, here is a pic of a similar em machine schematic. finger pointing to the coil circuit. hope this helps




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AlanJ

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finger supposed to point to “coin unit s.u.” coil. hard to point and photo at same time!!!


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jimkounter

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The coin step up circuit is on section 5E of the schematic and looks like it's triggered from the reset relay. Wouldn't that reset everything each time though? Section 3C has the credit switch triggering the replay relay and to the left of it the reset relay via IND-A, a cam on the index wheel of the score motor. Am I correct in thinking that the reset relay is triggered on the initial press of the credit button but then isn't triggered by subsequent presses until the index cam closes the connection again?

Any help is greatly appreciated!
 
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jimkounter

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As it stands at the moment every time the credit button is pressed it's triggering the reset relay and the replay relay.
 

astyy

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Do you have the startup sequence document for this machine?

Worth posting on Pinside EM tech sub-forum too, some very helpful people there too who like marking up schematic snippets to diagnose problems :thumbs:
 
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jimkounter

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There's pages of handwritten notes from a previous owner who'd fixed loads of other issues but had drawn a blank on the multiplayer problem. I think Ive confirmed that the reset and replay relays are working properly so it looks like a switch in the score motor is staying closed causing a full reset every time the credit button is pressed. I'll have a look at that and if I don't make progress I'll post on pinside. Thanks for the help so far chaps, it's really appreciated. These EM machines aren't that complicated once you start digging into the schematics...famous last words?
 
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AlanJ

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There's pages of handwritten notes from a previous owner who'd fixed loads of other issues but had drawn a blank on the multiplayer problem. I think Ive confirmed that the reset and replay relays are working properly so it looks like a switch in the score motor is staying closed causing a full reset every time the credit button is pressed. I'll have a look at that and if I don't make progress I'll post on pinside. Thanks for the help so far chaps, it's really appreciated. These EM machines aren't that complicated once you start digging into the schematics...famous last words?
the reset relay triggers on the first player setup. once the setup of the first player has happened then the 2,3,4 players can be added but only if the reset relay has unset. so it’s either a switch on the reset relay that isn’t working correctly. or it’s something in the reset relay coil circuit that is keeping it patched on. easy to tell which just look at the reset relay and see if it engages on and off as player 1 is setup when pressing the start button. if it stays on then that’s the problem. if it goes off then it’s the first problem


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jimkounter

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The reset relay triggers and resets with each press of the credit button. I'd cleaned the contacts with some 600 grit wet and dry folded in between the contacts. Assuming this is the issue, the pulse to the relay will go through the normally closed make / break switch to activate the coin stepper coil. Won't the reset relay then activating break this connection and activate the coin reset? Sorry for all the questions, I'm still trying to get my head around how this works.
 

AlanJ

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aha ok sorry i missed that. now i’ve got it.

So, the coin unit s.u. coil should trigger to add an extra player when three switches are closed. these are 1. a switch on the coin relay, 2. the switch D on cam 1 of the score motor unit, 3. a switch (normally closed) on the reset relay.

taking these in turn
1. the coin relay is energised either by coin relays (let’s ignore those for this) or by pressing the credit button (start button) - as long as you have credits on the machine and you haven’t already clocked up 4 players. also in order for the credit button to work. the reset relay needs to be off as there is a normally closed switch on it that’s in the credit button circuit, and the score motor needs to be at rest so the normally closed switch A on the index cam is indeed closed.
if you can clock up a single player game then this lot should be working. but check you have more than one credit on the machine. and test out that zero position switch on the credit unit (called the replay unit in the schematic)

2. switch D on cam 1. check it is normally open and closes momentarily as the score motor turns. i guess this will be working as you can start a 1 player game which also uses this.

3. reset relay switch. check this switch closes when the reset relay is not on. if that doesn’t make contact it will never be possible to clock up additional players. this is most likely the issue.

it must be one of the above !!!






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jimkounter

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Thanks Alan. All of the above are correct! The switch on the reset relay is in the closed position and closes when the credit button is pressed. This then performs a full cycle on the rest relay. I believe for subsequent presses of the button the reset relay needs to stay closed and not cycle through so the pulse gets to the step up. My guess is that the game over relay is remaining closed, activating the rest relay each time. I'll check this first. A one player game works fine and multiplayer works if I cycle the coin step up manually. It's therefore something in the circuit which is triggering the reset relay each time.
 

astyy

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You might be onto something, if the Game Over relay is stuck closed then the Reset Relay will energise everytime the Coin Relay does. Isn't the Game Over relay a latch/trip type, is it mechanically working properly?
 
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jimkounter

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The game over relay is a latch/ trip type. I've attached a picture from the manual. When the machine is switched off the relay in the machine matches the diagram. Pressing the credit button cycles it and the normally closed switches to the reset and replay relays are open. Pressing the credit button again fully cycles the game over relay, closing and then reopening the reset and replay switches. So, something is causing the game over relay to cycle upon each additional press of the credit button. The trip coil is triggered by a zero switch on the ball count or player unit. Time to track these down and test them. It can only be a limited number of things so I feel I'm making progress by ticking off the various possibilities.20200113_161446.jpg
 

AlanJ

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Aha if the reset relay is triggering a 2nd (3rd, 4th etc) time, then check the zero switches on the ball count unit and the player unit - as you've just said above

Also check the switch stack on the game over relay, if the NO one is perm closed, could be the issue.
 
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jimkounter

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TL/DR: Ball count zero switch was closed when it should have been open.

The long version for anyone in a similar predicament who finds this in a Google search:


With everyone's help on here I've finally solved the problem. For future reference let me go through the issue and the steps I took to check everything.

The game plays fine on single player and scores and counts the balls etc perfectly. Pressing the credit button to add another player simply reset the whole machine.

I started at the coin unit which should add players and then worked my way backwards.

Going through the manual and schematic I can see that the coin unit adds players through the coin step up solonoid. I manually activated the linkage and confirmed it added players. Then I checked the coil itself. I checked the resistance across the lugs of the coil using a multimeter confirming the coil was good. To ensure it wasn't the sleeve that was binding I jumped the supply from the 6v transformer to the power lug on the coil and it fired. So, I know he mechanism of the coin unit and the coils are good.

Next, do the same thing for the player unit in the backbox. Again, manually advancing the unit correctly selected the next player. No need to check these coils etc because I confirmed it correctly set to the next player when playing a game so I know this works fine.

Whenever I press the credit button I get a full reset with power going to the coin unit reset.

Time to check the reset relay. I confirmed that all the contacts were in the correct position and that the contacts supplying power to the coin unit step up were clean.

So now I know the reset relay is functioning correctly, however it's being activated every time the credit button is pressed. This is activated by the game over relay so time to check that. This relay is a latch / trip relay. What this means is that the first credit powers the relay which latches on. To reset this relay a separate trip coil is activated which unlatches it.

I checked the position of the switches and cleaned contacts and confirmed that it's correctly latching when adding the first credit. The issue is that subsequent credits are activating the trip, resetting it. Upon the reset of the game over relay it activated the reset relay, which routed power to the coin reset. Aha! Here is the issue. The game over relay shouldn't be fully reset with each additional credit. Something is activating the trip.

The schematic and the manual show that if the player unit zero switch or the ball count zero switch are closed then it will route the power pulse to the game over relay.

Using a long wooden kebab stick I held open the ball count zero switch and pressed the credit button and hey presto, additional players are added!

So, simple adjustment to ensure the zero switch is open and problem solved.

Thank for all the help, it's greatly appreciated.
 
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jimkounter

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I can't overstate how helpful people both here and on pinside have been. Once you figure out how to read the schematic then it's a process of logical deduction. If you don't have any assistance you'd eventually work it out but it would take longer. In hindsight I should have checked the game over relay much sooner but it took a long time and lots of assistance to work out the flow of actions. A start up sequence would have helped but unfortunately it's not in the Segasa manual. It does look however that the Williams start sequence is the same (Williams manufactured the Segasa machines)

Next thing to look at is why the third player score reel often flicks over the hundred thousand reel far too early. Guess it's a switch on the reel closing too early. Anyway, that's for another day, first got to play a multiplayer game with my daughters!
 
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astyy

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Congrats on a good find and great t/shooting for your first EM :thumbs:

I wonder if this was an attempt to set Freeplay more normal to short the zero position switch on the Credit/Replay unit which has perhaps been done on yours.
 
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AlanJ

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brilliant news.

i must admit i am hooked on em’s. there is nothing like them for the satisfaction of having to delve into the schematic and bit by bit figuring out how all those relays, coils, switches and steppers work together to create a logical game flow, one part of the circuit leads you to another, then another, and another. what initially looked confusing and unintelligible gradually reveals its logic and beauty before your very eyes.

i would love an em shooter and also can only dream about an em bowling alley!!!




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jimkounter

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Congrats on a good find and great t/shooting for your first EM :thumbs:

I wonder if this was an attempt to set Freeplay more normal to short the zero position switch on the Credit/Replay unit which has perhaps been done on yours.
Don't think so. It's not set for free play, it was just the switch being improperly adjusted. I'm either going to set it on free play or ideally sort out some coin chutes for the coin door so I can bang coins in it.
 

AlanJ

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Setting free play is simple, just short out the switch on the replay unit (credits unit) that goes open when the credits get down to zero. I use a wire with croc clip at each end, so it is obvious to any new owner that this is an intended and easily reversible fix.
 
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jimkounter

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I'm totally electronics illiterate and I have a huge fascination with mechanical objects so an EM machine was the obvious choice. Plus I love the open playfields and artwork on them.
 
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jimkounter

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Setting free play is simple, just short out the switch on the replay unit (credits unit) that goes open when the credits get down to zero. I use a wire with croc clip at each end, so it is obvious to any new owner that this is an intended and easily reversible fix.
Ah , super. I'll sort that out later then. Quick question, are highly visible blue sparks on slingshot switches normal? The coil is good and the slingshot is working properly, just with a light show on the playfield.
 

AlanJ

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Ah, super. I'll sort that out later then. Quick question, are highly visible blue sparks on slingshot switches normal? The coil is good and the slingshot is working properly, just with a light show on the playfield.
yes. the full power to the slingshot coil is going through that leaf switch so it is normal.

another useful tip for fault finding on ems is to switch the lights out and look for sparks or absence of sparks. i’ve just fixed an issue today on my top card. it was cycling the score motor continuously at the start of a new game. turned out a leaf switch on the score motor was making contact for too long and setting the motor running around again. i spotted this visually, saved me ages trawling through the schematic


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