Rules too deep?

M4carp

Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2019
2,259
1,969
113
Pembrokeshire
Alias
David
My son just popped in from uni and we just had a game of doubles on my recently added Robo-War that he has not seen, two good scores/games (7mil/3mil).
He just said he really liked this one as he just didn’t understand my other pins and this one he did, he is in his 4th year at medical school😂
He looked over at LOTR and TWD and just shrugged his shoulders🤷‍♂️ and said haven’t got a clue too complicated.
I know there are people on here that only want games with deep rules but we had more fun on Robo-War this morning than any game I’ve had.

So is it getting too complex for non addicts to enjoy or do all the bells and whistles get them past the deep rules?
 

Mfresh

Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2012
1,631
1,628
113
Bucks, Paul Rubens
www.pavlovpinball.com
Alias
Mr Sinister
I think there is definately something to what you are saying. There are final wizard modes in most of my recent games that I will never get close to, and code updates that add or adjust areas of the games that I didnt even know existed. A good sys 11 game for example offers loads of fun and goals that are difficult but achievable. Bells and whistles are good, but complex games can get a bit repetitive if you only ever get to skim the very first layer of the rules, while for good players I guess they are much more interesting.
 
  • Like
Reactions: M4carp

Sam C

Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2012
1,492
790
113
Kettering, UK
Alias
Archy
I would say the best thing about LOTR being so deep is that it has meant I've not yet finished it in over 3 years of ownership :rofl:

LOTR isn't as massively complicated as people make out but can seem overwhelming though if you don't know what you're shooting for, I just find pick what you want to do and go from there.

Want to play all the modes? Just go around collecting elf rings and starting modes.
Multiballs? Shoot for the ramps, inlanes and path of the dead etc.

Everything else kind of falls into place picking one of those things. Gifts of the elves comes from doing and winning either modes or multiballs, after that you've just got There and Back Again (from just playing all modes once) and Destroy The Ring (Playing all multiballs once).

Valinor is where you need a cracking game and it gets a little complicated.
 

Lickashot

Site Supporter
May 8, 2020
199
145
43
Worcestershire
I fully understand TWD rules but in relation to the difficulty factor Last Man Standing ain't never gonna happen it really isn't. Same with AC/DC getting to Encore is just not happening (though I tend to play just for score on this) I don't fully understand all the nuances of AC/DC either but hey it's a frustrating but fun pin.
 
  • Like
Reactions: M4carp
OP
M4carp

M4carp

Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2019
2,259
1,969
113
Pembrokeshire
Alias
David
But if you want to get some sort of high score or playing doubles etc you need to know the rules to do well whereas the older shallow games it’s a few targets, adv., lanes etc
Not sure if you want new blood that making games with deep rules could be intimidating to some people. Can’t please everyone I guess

If you own a pin you are going to know how to play it hopefully but if you are a casual player it could be frustrating, we all want to get our name up after all.
Whenever I have gone to a sight to play the latest pin, I go away frustrated. Surely I should have enjoyed it!

Saying all that something must be right with all the new pins in the last few years😎
 

Neil McRae

Site Supporter
Jun 5, 2016
10,490
7,336
113
Surrey
playpinball.uk
Alias
Neil McRae
a lot of games have two rulesets to cope with this.

TWD bash the fat guy or the prison get multiball

Elvira - bash the garage get multball
Deadpool lil deadpool multiball
AIQ - hit Thor get multiball
Star Trek, hit the ship get multiball
gotg hit groot get mutiball
MET hit party get multiball

etc

but then you have some classics:

Meteor, hit the spinner
embryon hit the letters
earth shaker the numbers and then shoot for multiball
etc

let me know his name so he doesn't operate on me :D :D :D
 
  • Like
Reactions: M4carp

Neil McRae

Site Supporter
Jun 5, 2016
10,490
7,336
113
Surrey
playpinball.uk
Alias
Neil McRae
also - take TWD when you get to horde or LMS the sense of achievement is epic; same with getting to batusi on B66 etc...
Do or Die on Iron Man ...

Neil.
 
OP
M4carp

M4carp

Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2019
2,259
1,969
113
Pembrokeshire
Alias
David
But some people don’t want to waste their time learning the rules they want to understand what’s going on quickly, score well and not look stupid.
My wife just said the same thing and she has played them regular and is not interested in the rules even when I point them out🤷‍♂️
I like them all, well nearly.

Don’t worry Neil you are beyond help🤣😂🤣
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neil McRae

huggers

Site Supporter
Sep 22, 2016
1,868
1,860
113
West Dorset
There's room for both I reckon. I only tend to buy games with deeper rules as I've got too many expensive hobbies and can only really justify one pin at a time. I do tend to geek out a little over a good code set though. If I had a few pins I'd be all good with some simpler games I guess but I'd still want one or two deeper games. As Neil says though there's a good number of games that cater pretty well to both.
 
  • Like
Reactions: M4carp

Dave Bishop

Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2011
2,241
1,222
113
38
Sidcup, Kent
How do people play? All my games set to 3 balls- with extra balls - so on some games like AFM I can get 2 or 3 extra balls..
but other games - extra balls can be hard to get so I only get 3..

What are tournament ball settings?
 

DRD

Site Supporter
Oct 26, 2014
4,303
3,159
113
Newark
Competition modes try to even players' chances by ruling out things like random awards. Previously random awards might then always be given in the same order for example (like fish finder on fish tails).

Number of balls is a different setting

Extra balls a different setting
 

Gonzo

Site Supporter
Sep 2, 2019
1,314
1,632
113
Sandhurst
Alias
Kris
My son just popped in from uni and we just had a game of doubles on my recently added Robo-War that he has not seen, two good scores/games (7mil/3mil).
He just said he really liked this one as he just didn’t understand my other pins and this one he did, he is in his 4th year at medical school😂
He looked over at LOTR and TWD and just shrugged his shoulders🤷‍♂️ and said haven’t got a clue too complicated.
I know there are people on here that only want games with deep rules but we had more fun on Robo-War this morning than any game I’ve had.

So is it getting too complex for non addicts to enjoy or do all the bells and whistles get them past the deep rules?


100%

AFM is about as good as it gets for luring a novice into pinball. Not only is it blatantly obvious what has to be done immediately it's also clear what the end goal is. Even if all that's achieved on the first attempt is saving Paris there is enough to entice you back to try and rescue the other cities.

Out of the pins I've owned and the only machines that remotely interested non pinball playing friends & family have been AFM & Deadpool.

Deadpool is not just about bashing little DP, it's very clear how to beat the bad guys and the fact that there are only 5 to light on the backboard make the player feel like they have a chance to get to the end of the game. The scoop is also easy to hit so anyone new will be able to launch modes and get involved very easily.

Pinball is not really about that anymore though. It's a niche hobby rather than something to interest the general public so the rules are deep and complicated enough to keep one entertained in a home environment.

I agree with Neil that many of these newer games have an easier element to them. However there is a massive difference between a simple mode enabling the novice just to flip the ball around and actually engaging and immersing them into the game.

Anyone can hit a few balls then walk away mildly impressed. The trick is to make people feel that they can reach the end with easy to understand rules, fun shots and engagement.

The older titles were fun and addictive to most folk. I'm a massive fan of Spike II games and I'd like all of them but mostly they're far too complicated for friends to get hooked and come back for more.

I've never owned one but I wouldn't mind betting that Fish Tales would go down a storm at a family BBQ.
 
  • Like
Reactions: M4carp

Gonzo

Site Supporter
Sep 2, 2019
1,314
1,632
113
Sandhurst
Alias
Kris
How do people play? All my games set to 3 balls- with extra balls - so on some games like AFM I can get 2 or 3 extra balls..
but other games - extra balls can be hard to get so I only get 3..

What are tournament ball settings?

Same for me Dave.

Initially I turned extra balls off because it seemed like the 'purist' thing to do. However I quickly realized that I'd paid thousands for a machine and was limiting my enjoyment.

I really like the added drama of trying to hit a lit extra ball shot and of course the added bonus of helping progress the game.
 

BigIan

Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2011
3,665
1,778
113
Belfast, Northern Ireland
Alias
ZIG
100%

AFM is about as good as it gets for luring a novice into pinball. Not only is it blatantly obvious what has to be done immediately it's also clear what the end goal is. Even if all that's achieved on the first attempt is saving Paris there is enough to entice you back to try and rescue the other cities.

Out of the pins I've owned and the only machines that remotely interested non pinball playing friends & family have been AFM & Deadpool.
The fact you get a bizzilion points for just launching the ball helps too, people think they have done something right as they have millions very quickly
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gonzo

Kenny Taylor

Site Supporter
Jul 27, 2015
1,987
612
113
North East of Scotland
It’s awesome alright. That’s why I’d never sell it. Sometimes the walker magnet will fire right back at the flipper twice or even three times in a row whilst in the middle of battle. You really feel your fighting the machine..
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lickashot

AlanJ

Beta Tester
Dec 27, 2017
2,198
2,020
113
Leeds, West Yorkshire
Alias
I am me
These games were made to award extra balls as part of the rules. So for home play I'd put on extra balls.

I like both types of games, got LOTR etc for deep rules and then really liking simple 80's SS games for easy to understand games.
 
  • Like
Reactions: M4carp