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Reality check

Bobbdobalina

Bobbdobalina

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Joined
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Just thought I’d air my thoughts on a separate thread rather than a for sale thread.
After reading the storm in a tea cup on a current and mentions of trolling on a for sale thread im a little confused.

Maybe the comment and wording was a little unnecessarily as it’s a for sale thread but I think the point was valid despite what seems to be the general consensus regarding the back of a machine.

I’m 100% with the seller and if I was to advertise a pin I would describe it warts and all as I believe in full disclosure. Which includes the rear of the pin. And honestly is an important trait to me.

These things are a lot of money and equate to the price of a car and I certainly wouldn’t buy a car without looking at every panel from every angle.

Guess I just find it strange that so many brush it off and even call it out if something like this is mentioned.

The pinball hobby really does seem to exist in its own bubble devoid of every day reality sometimes.

I really hope this isn’t just me thinking this way.
 
If someone sold me a modern Pin and didn't mention the back was all scuffed up I would be annoyed. I always put card underneath when I wrap them up for delivery.

As for number of plays, I don't know why some people get so up in arms when people ask. I'd always mention it in my sales post so people don't have to ask. The advert had everything I'd want in a sales ad, lots of honest info listing both good and bad, and clear photos.
 
Marvello said:
If someone sold me a modern Pin and didn't mention the back was all scuffed up I would be annoyed. I always put card underneath when I wrap them up for delivery.

As for number of plays, I don't know why some people get so up in arms when people ask. I'd always mention it in my sales post so people don't have to ask. The advert had everything I'd want in a sales ad, lots of honest info listing both good and bad, and clear photos.
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Number of plays isn't a useful measure of anything, which is why people object:
  1. It can get cleared for various reasons.
  2. It's not a reliable measure of how much the machine has been played. A Godzilla with 161 plays by Arvid Flygare probably has more playfield/parts wear than ours!
Short version, number of plays penalises ownership by bad players!

With honesty, people... vary, to say the least. Not always for malicious reasons, as per the consensus over 'rear of the machine, so what?' We lost close to £400 on a pin due to @MadMonzer troubleshooting a fault, finding (and bodging) every other hazard of the machine in the process (none of which had caused problems to previous owners), and then feeling obliged to meticulously list them all out incase they failed later and someone got electrocuted!

It feels unfair to lose money for that when other people are like 'oops, did I forget to mention the credit dot and 96 error messages?'

I wouldn't automatically assume a nearly-six-year-old pin to be immaculate. I have an entire small person who can add up, count and read 'Pit Pat' who's younger than a Munsters - things can change a lot in five years!
 
I'm not so worried about older (B/W era) machines that will 100% have been on route back in the day, but if i'm buying a newer machine that has likely been HUO, then i would expect the backs to be in good condition.

I see it that if care hasnt been taken whilst moving it about, has care been taken in the general use / upkeep of the machine?
 
Whether you think number of plays matters or not, it's up to the buyer whether it matters to them. Just list the number of plays and let the buyer decide whether that figure is true or not.

People usually withhold information if they think it will negatively affect their sale.
 
Rear of the machine matters as its an indicator of the life its led. If you have treated it like an appliance i.e. possibly routed it. If its HUO then the thing really shouldn't have a beat to hell rear.
I had a buyer who was obesessed with number of plays. Like it was an odometer on a car. It has NO bearing on the game. It could have been sat in an arcade turned on for 18 hours a day and not been played or been in a home and been played to death but only turned on when played. The electronics in this case could be on the way out and there is no way of telling by just looking.
People listing plastic tat they have added as if it adds value. With the exception of a (proper) colorDMD and a shaker, no ta.
 
Marvello said:
Whether you think number of plays matters or not, it's up to the buyer whether it matters to them. Just list the number of plays and let the buyer decide whether that figure is true or not.

People usually withhold information if they think it will negatively affect their sale.
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It's not whether the figure is correct. It's whether the figure is meaningful.

I watched Jason Zahler play A:IQ for probably 15 minutes at the UK Open, scoring 3 billion and reaching the end of the game. My games of A:IQ probably last a full-filled minute. That means, if you buy a game off Jason Zahler's dad, the exact same number of plays is going to involve 15 times the time a pinball is zipping around the playfield, activating the electronics and causing mechanical wear!

Unless you're suggesting that the seller also provides a rundown of how good a pinball player they think they are? Maybe their IFPA ranking or some sample high scores? Just so we can work out if they're closer to me or Jason Zahler before purchase :)
 
With the exception of Hobbit, Champ Pub and Indiana Jones (which are perfect) all my machines have scratched up backs, and are also well maintained both electronically and mechanically 🤷‍♂️
So I don't understand how you can relate the condition of the back of a machine to what it's actual playfield/electronic condition is.

It is possible for a machine to be well looked after and also have a scuffed back.

Obviously it is up to the individual whether they personally care about the back of a machine or not. It wouldn't affect my decision to buy something
 
Number of plays is also entirely meaningless.

Just look at the condition of the machine.

Would you rather have a pin with a worn out playfield that has 100 plays in the stats, or a pin with a perfect playfield that has 10,000 plays in the stats ?
 
Marvello said:
List the number of plays, let the buyer decide, simple.

I do find it odd some people kick up a stink when asked for the number of plays.
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I think it's because it's silly :)

It's like if a potential buyer requested that you photograph the undersides of the feet. I mean, yeah, sure, they can decide, but why do they need to know that? 🤷‍♂️

Time is money. And, if everyone makes a random request, it's time the seller could be working/spending with family/down the pub.
 
VeeMonroe said:
I think it's because it's silly :)

It's like if a potential buyer requested that you photograph the undersides of the feet. I mean, yeah, sure, they can decide, but why do they need to know that? 🤷‍♂️

Time is money. And, if everyone makes a random request, it's time the seller could be working/spending with family/down the pub.
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You're being ridiculous now. It takes 10 seconds to get the number of plays.

I don't disagree that number of plays has lots of variables.
 
Marvello said:
You're being ridiculous now. It takes 10 seconds to get the number of plays.

I don't disagree that number of plays has lots of variables.
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It's the principle! :)

And the problem here, speaking from lots of experience selling stuff, is that some high minority of (potential) buyers always have a bee in their bonnet about something. And it's something different for each person.

You, for example, might be interested in numbers of plays. Someone else is interested in the back of the machine. The next person is interested in whether some tiny detail on the playfield (of whatever pin) is the white-and-green colourway or the rare red-and-green colourway only produced for the first 140 games off the production line.

And pins are expensive enough, now, that it's worth the time to keep going back to the machine, and removing the glass, and going through the options menu, and keep on rephotographing stuff and quoting new statistics. But, overall, it doesn't alter the fact that it uses up a lot of time.

From my experience selling board games and clearing my mum's house, once things are cheaper than a few hundred quid, this stuff gets VERY silly VERY fast. I still remember the chap who wanted to buy this massive minis game from us, which came in loads of boxes. And he wanted us to photograph every miniature, and we were there at 10pm at night individually photographing about 150 plastic miniatures for a £100 game. I'm self-employed and, honestly, at my commercial hourly rate, I could've made more money chucking it in the bin 🤬
 
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Despite being super careful with cardboard, straps, blankets and what not I still got a scratch on the back of Mando when I moved it, they are heavy and when moving up and down stairs and stuff these things are bound to happen.

Seems like that game is a reasonable deal and the seller has provided detailed pics, so not too sure what the issue is?

On number of plays, I do think its a valid question and can be used to verify home use. But on a machine built to withstand, what 50k plays?? its a bit silly dismissing a game over a couple of thousand.
 
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People getting overly concerned about the back box is the equivalent of putting comics in bags.

Life happens. Scratches happen.

I’d far rather have a banged up WCS than a mint Munsters.

The hobby means different things to different people but to care deeply about something that is always going to be facing the wall for me? I’d rather be playing the game.
 
Some folks like their pins in absolute mint condition though. Each to their own.

If you have 2 pins exactly the same, but one has a scratched back and the other doesnt, then is one intrinsically worth less than the other?
The answer is yes and the answer is no, depending on who you are!
But on average, I think the answer will be yes.
 
AlanJ said:
Some folks like their pins in absolute mint condition though. Each to their own.

If you have 2 pins exactly the same, but one has a scratched back and the other doesnt, then is one intrinsically worth less than the other?
The answer is yes and the answer is no, depending on who you are!
But on average, I think the answer will be yes.
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Yes, but the reality is you're rarely gifted with two of the same pin on the market at the same time.

So, you either want that game. Or you don't.

The rest is 'culture clash'. I have rejected a pin as a trade because it was kept off its legs as a collector's piece and, to be frank, unplayed pins don't survive contact with our household. If you want something beautiful and nostalgic to sit in your front room, that's one market, and people who actually intend to play pinball on the machine are another. There are two different groups of people wanting different things - and one is going to be more horrified by rear scratches than another 🤷‍♂️

It would be nice, and MUCH more useful than numbers of plays, that people made it clear which group they belong to :) It's just about 'expectations management' - there's nothing more annoying than a beautiful pin that you have to spend ages fiddling with because it plays like 🩲.
 
Of course, like for like I imagine most here would choose the one with no scratches even if they weren't particularly bothered by them.
But that game seemed to be priced accordingly and the the seller has been open and honest about it.

I would say I have seen a couple of occasions where I feel people have been almost too honest, pointing out every negative on a 30 odd year old game, which most games of that age will have, then not getting a sniff of interest, on what I would consider a solid buy.
 
Wow didn't I start the fire?

My comment was the number of plays just for me didn't reflect the number of plays.
Wasn't an attack on Jib as I doubt she caused that but it just shows to me that whoever had it before didn't care if it was dragged across a concrete floor.

People often like to say pinball machines are like cars and you should expect them to devalue as such.

Using the same analogy if someone had a car for sale and it had a banged up bumper and I said I'd want more money off due to the damage and they said 'bumpers are meant to be bumped' I'd just walk away from the deal. If someone doesn't respect the condition of what they are selling, then they appear to me that they don't care about the game. That's just my opinion.

I won't comment on the for sale thread as I've obviously ****ed off a few people with my comment but honestly it was just back on what I said before. The number of plays for me don't reflect the condition of the cab.
 
This is an interesting discussion 👍🏻
Personally I wouldn't be put off by scratches off of the back of a machine, especially if the rest of it was nice.
If machine arrives at mine with a nice condition back (like *the Walking dead prem I have up for sale now....) then I think why not try and keep it nice?
when I've sold games, I generally put a bit of cardboard or some pallet wrapp underneath to try and preserve it, but I think both the buyer/seller must appreciate that if some scratching does ocurr during transport, it's not the end of the world.
As I have to have whichever game I own in our open plan livingroom/kitchen, the cab (or atleast the left side...) has look reasonably nice, but other than that, as long as the things I'm looking at when I play are decent, I'm not worried.
Obvs if 2 of the same game came up, you'd expect to pay a little less for the scratched cab version (everything else being equal)

*re number of games. Although it's kind of meaningless, due to updated code being installed when I recieved it, tonight I'll update my ad with currenr number of plays the game is showing.
 
s000m said:
Wow didn't I start the fire?

My comment was the number of plays just for me didn't reflect the number of plays.
Wasn't an attack on Jib as I doubt she caused that but it just shows to me that whoever had it before didn't care if it was dragged across a concrete floor.

People often like to say pinball machines are like cars and you should expect them to devalue as such.

Using the same analogy if someone had a car for sale and it had a banged up bumper and I said I'd want more money off due to the damage and they said 'bumpers are meant to be bumped' I'd just walk away from the deal. If someone doesn't respect the condition of what they are selling, then they appear to me that they don't care about the game. That's just my opinion.

I won't comment on the for sale thread as I've obviously ****ed off a few people with my comment but honestly it was just back on what I said before. The number of plays for me don't reflect the condition of the cab.
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That reminded me of when I delivered TWD LE to you, you made a comment about a few scratches on the back. Wasn’t that bad considering it had been on location at Tilt and Chief Coffee. I thought I was fussy until then😂

Each to their own though, if it’s really bad it should be reflected in the price but how much though I have no idea.
 
M4carp said:
That reminded me of when I delivered TWD LE to you, you made a comment about a few scratches on the back. Wasn’t that bad considering it had been on location at Tilt and Chief Coffee. I thought I was fussy until then😂

Each to their own though, if it’s really bad it should be reflected in the price but how much though I have no idea.
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Lol you make me sound like an OCD maniac 🤣

Just makes me sad when the rear looks like it's been through a war.
Your Walking Dead for the record looked great!

If I need to restore a game that's fine, I've done more than my fair share.

I personally find re-silk screening a pain though and pretty stressful due to it's one shot nature. Other people aren't going to care if the warning text is bodged but every pin I've sold people want pictures of everything.

For me I prefer the cab to look as mint as possible. If it looks like a fade tales then this affects my offer price. Games which look cosmetically good both on the cab and playfield command a better price for me.
 
s000m said:
Lol you make me sound like an OCD maniac 🤣

Just makes me sad when the rear looks like it's been through a war.
Your Walking Dead for the record looked great!

If I need to restore a game that's fine, I've done more than my fair share.

I personally find re-silk screening a pain though and pretty stressful due to it's one shot nature. Other people aren't going to care if the warning text is bodged but every pin I've sold people want pictures of everything.

For me I prefer the cab to look as mint as possible. If it looks like a fade tales then this affects my offer price. Games which look cosmetically good both on the cab and playfield command a better price for me.
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You know I can’t remember if my Manny restored fish tales had the screen printing done on the back, I know he did it but can’t remember if I got him to do it. It was so long ago it probably didn't bother me then but it will now for sure especially after this discussion😂
 
Many are missing the point, the advert listed a modern pro at a fair price and was fully transparent.

We have all been guilty of it and I am including myself, but posting unnecessary stuff that will put buyers off is unfair for the seller.

If it was advertised at £6.5k, £7k then expect it to be mint fully restored, licked clean and comments warranted, just like we do for way over priced rot box Adams

Personally I like my games as mint as possible, however depending on what I paid for it and how it's described when it arrives I'm not hugely bothered. To be honest the only way to get it as I would love is either a NiTB or a fully mint restoration at a massive premium. I've accepted nearly any second hand pin will have potential OCD issues (as NiTB sometimes does)
 
I remember the fun we had around the definition of "mint" - which is why lots of people dont use it....

Mint to me is NIB condition, or at very least FULLY restored by someone that knows their beans.
Mint to someone else might be a wipe over with no obvious issues.

It's VERY subjective, and a bold claim :)
 
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