Obscure pinball trivia question (relays)

[VeeMonroe]

My husband wants to know when did pinball machines stop using relays for the power output?

Our El PinBotto (System 11) had relays for some, but not all, of the high-power connections. And, of course, they were used extensively on EMs because transistors hadn’t been invented yet.

 

[Pick Holder]

Flipper relays can be found on early WPC boards. Anything pre-fliptronics.

 

[VeeMonroe]

Flipper relays can be found on early WPC boards. Anything pre-fliptronics.

So up to pins like T2 (which I understand to be pre-fliptronics)?

 

[David_Vi]

So up to pins like T2 (which I understand to be pre-fliptronics)?

Wpc89 boardset. Depends on the game, some still use relays. Not 100%

 

[myPinballs]

Relays were mostly parked on the side lines once games went to the dmd era.

The exception is a relay for flipper enable on wpc for the early stuff and also the gi relay on data east/sega/stern whitestar and sam games

 

[David_Vi]

Relays were mostly parked on the side lines once games went to the dmd era.

The exception is a relay for flipper enable on wpc for the early stuff and also the gi relay on data east/sega/stern whitestar and sam games

My JP has a relay which flashes the GI which you can hear when playing at home, can't believe I forgot about that.

It'll be a thing of the past soon as I've got a board to bypass and smooth the annoying flashing

 

[Pick Holder]

So up to pins like T2 (which I understand to be pre-fliptronics)?

A lot of games after had relays on the boards (wpc89) however they are not used

You can use the relay board in any wpc89 game as its not addressed in the software to activate the voltage to flipper coils

 

[myPinballs]

My JP has a relay which flashes the GI which you can hear when playing at home, can't believe I forgot about that.

It'll be a thing of the past soon as I've got a board to bypass and smooth the annoying flashing

I actually quite like the old bmst sound gi flash to bass line clicking , haha

 

[David_Vi]

I actually quite like the old bmst sound gi flash to bass line clicking , haha

It's quirky like a car indicator clicking, it's more the aggressive flashing of 2smd LEDs I'm not a big fan of

 

[MadMonzer]

(Vee’s husband here - now with own account) Thanks all - this is interesting. I was trying to work out what were the technical innovations around the same time as the DMD which drive the gameplay change from the early solid states (e.g. HGT) to the DMD-era machines - as I see it towards a faster paced game with more bells and whistles. Better coils and therefore stronger flippers looks like one of them - I was wondering if better power transistors so you no longer needed relays was another.

 

[David_Vi]

(Vee’s husband here - now with own account) Thanks all - this is interesting. I was trying to work out what were the technical innovations around the same time as the DMD which drive the gameplay change from the early solid states (e.g. HGT) to the DMD-era machines - as I see it towards a faster paced game with more bells and whistles. Better coils and therefore stronger flippers looks like one of them - I was wondering if better power transistors so you no longer needed relays was another.

Personally I don't think there's a huge amount of innovation from sys11 to WPC89. It's still gradual, don't forget Funhouse is alphanumeric but actually uses the wpc89 boardset, so it's really a dmd game without a dmd.

The coils aren't any different between sys11 and wpc89, coils are coils.

Sys11 and wpc89 are the sweet spot for me where you had ramps that return to inlanes for the first time, decent sound packages, gameplay that isn't deep but is challenging. Diner and Taxi really demonstrate this.

 

[Pick Holder]

The relays did not actually flip the flippers - it just allowed the voltage to get to the switches and coils.

 

[MajesticPinball]

Gottlieb used relays right until their last ever game. The infamous A, T & Q relays found in the bottom of the cabinets look identical to how they used to look in Gottliebs EM days, although they do have a nice Plastic cover over them to stop rogue screws falling in. The relays are pretty simple:

A: For backbox GI
T: Tilt (or playfield GI)
Q: Game over (basically just enables the flippers)

Some system 3s have additional relays in this bank but ATQ lasted right through the system 3 lifespan

 

[myPinballs]

Gottlieb used relays right until their last ever game. The infamous A, T & Q relays found in the bottom of the cabinets look identical to how they used to look in Gottliebs EM days, although they do have a nice Plastic cover over them to stop rogue screws falling in. The relays are pretty simple:

A: For backbox GI
T: Tilt (or playfield GI)
Q: Game over (basically just enables the flippers)

Some system 3s have additional relays in this bank but ATQ lasted right through the system 3 lifespan

Nothing wrong with this approach. if it aint broke..

My lovely 80b's are quite happy with these relays to haha

 

[David_Vi]

Idiot question coming up, the difference between a solenoid and a relay.

A relay is a coil that switches where power goes?
Where as a solenoid is a coil that is powered to move a plunger?

The reason I ask is the little coils that open and close the gates on orbits are the same size as relays and at first glance look like them. But they're not?

 

[AlanJ]

a relay incorporates a switch or several switches - used to switch high powered or high voltages from a lower power/voltage control. a solenoid is to move something - like a flipper, bumper, gate, lock etc.

 

[myPinballs]

Idiot question coming up, the difference between a solenoid and a relay.

A relay is a coil that switches where power goes?
Where as a solenoid is a coil that is powered to move a plunger?

The reason I ask is the little coils that open and close the gates on orbits are the same size as relays and at first glance look like them. But they're not?

Interestingly enough, if you ever work on em games you will see the 'modern' gate type coil with a fixed solid core to move/click in a little metal flap with a small spring to tension it. EM games often used these things to 'lock in' a relay stack/device so it would remain in the on state without having to have the main relay coil on all the time and therefore another switch closed all the time.

 

[Jay Walker]

I don't see that as an idiot question,

As I see it, as Jim says a relay coil has a solid core, and moves a metal plate. What's attached to that plate varies; in an e/m game it could be a slotted frame to move a whole set of contacts, controlling other circuits or switching a solenoid or a magnet (even the early solid-state games with magnets had e/m type relays actually controlling the magnets). Gottlieb e/m games often have a relay for the 00-90/Match feature; the plate operates a toothed ratchet, moving a pair of contacts over each of two small circuit boards (one for the actual selection and the other for the 00-90 lamps). One playfield device using a relay coil is a free-ball or lifting gate.

Or the plate may be locking a mechanism such as a 'play more' ball saver post between the flippers in the down position, and operating the relay allows the post, which was a refinement of the jet bumper mechanism, to spring up. I last saw this on Williams Space Shuttle; later on (post Fire!) it used the 'flatcam' device instead, to save one solenoid drive.

There was also a similar place for relay coils with lifting ramps, the plate has a spur attached, which hooks over a point on the back of the solenoid linkage to prevent it and the ramp flap from simply falling back down after the lift solenoid turns off.

And games with a dropper for a single target, such as T2, Fish Tales and Star Trek Next Gen, use one for the dropper function.

A modern solid-state pcb mounted relay such as a solenoid extender or flipper relay is a sealed example of the switching relay.

Whereas a solenoid has a hollow centre, for a metal plunger to move through when the winding is carrying current.