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League table on reliability

domlouis

domlouis

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In order to help the newbies, it might be a good idea to start a reliability table for pinball machines.
What i have in mind is based on users experience. For example i have a dw, ts, spiderman and tf. The dw never breaks down and i have had it for years. Ts: the wall target at the end of sanctum occasionally breaks down as it is only held by one screw underneath which gets undone. Spiderman never breaks down. Tf: the cube occasionally falls off (it is only held by one screw again). So in my table: dw and spiderman are more reliable than tf and ts.
Might help newbies get a grip with what tends to break down in pinball machines and what needs more tlc and what needs less tlc (they all need a bit of tlc) to help them in their choice of a first machine.
 
Not sure you can call this - I've heard time & again how much of a ballache STTNG is to own with the amount of things that can go wrong on it, and how newbies should avoid it as a first machine; yet I've had mine for more than 20 years & it's been an incredibly reliable machine...hardly an issue at all (& it was my first machine too).

Regards,
Dan.
 
Wizards_Hat said:
Not sure you can call this - I've heard time & again how much of a ballache STTNG is to own with the amount of things that can go wrong on it, and how newbies should avoid it as a first machine; yet I've had mine for more than 20 years & it's been an incredibly reliable machine...hardly an issue at all (& it was my first machine too).

Regards,
Dan.
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True. I guess every machine is different. All depends on how it has been looked after in its life. There are certain aspects of machines that do tend to be prone to problems though. i.e Getaway diverter ramp, Walking dead crossbow, etc etc
 
It is the same with cars. But that doesn't prevent people from having league table based on reliability. And i think it still helps.
 
I think its a good idea, but it is going to have to be very very general without going into specific parts (i.e. a common part all machines have, lock bar, power supply, rather than a game specific item like an toy assembly only ever used in 1 game.) For example - I had an F-14 Tomcat that gave me hell with the beacon light topper assembly and I ended up going through 3 beacon motors before it was fixed. I would class that part as totally unreliable, but another F-14 owner may have owned the game for 20 years and never had any issues, so for them that part is totally reliable.
 
domlouis said:
It is the same with cars. But that doesn't prevent people from having league table based on reliability. And i think it still helps.
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Those league tables will be based on a very standard questionnaire, with cars easily categorisable by factors such as age, mileage, service history, etc, and large sample sizes that give the results statistical validity. It will be very hard to come up with similar categories for pinball machines, or to get sufficient responses, to produce anything even approaching statistical significance. And results that lack statistical significance are no more useful than simple hearsay and anecdotal evidence.

I think the idea is well intentioned, but the execution as good as impossible.
 
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... and was the point I tried to make in the TILT thread. Why not change it to 'things to watch out for' in relation to particular machines if there are multiple examples of the same thing failing on the same machine?

Again, good intentions I know but the reality will send it all over the place.
 
domlouis said:
It is the same with cars. But that doesn't prevent people from having league table based on reliability. And i think it still helps.
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High mileage cars need more looking after then low mileage ones ,
But with pinballs machines there is know way of knowing really !
Even the coil paper gets changed ,looks like a new coil but not a new coil :hmm:
 
I think that reliability is hugely dependent on how much use a game has had and the extent of subsequent refurbishment. It is thus very hard to make sure you are comparing eggs with eggs.

After 15 years of ownership I can say qualitatively that TAF is a great game in terms of reliability
 
Not a right lot on T2 to go wrong. Cannon is pretty simple and other than that it has one drop target.
 
Would be interesting to see everyone's vote for most reliable. How far do you go back though? Surely the original flipperless machines were most reliable
 
EM's are super reliable as long as they get played. In fact, the more you play them the more reliable they are :D
 
Gottlieb System 3 is known for being ultra reliable and bulletproof....but an ultra pain in the ass if it does go wrong, to the extent that no pinball engineer will even touch it. So I'm not sure how that reliability survey helps.
 
Paul R Owen said:
Does Moonraker count as a "pinball engineer"?
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Not local enough to me. When mine went wrong and I couldn't figure out what the problem was I phoned around and emailed every pinball engineer in the North and Midlands, but as soon as I said Gottlieb System 3 they wouldn't even consider a call out. Bally or Williams no problem. Fortunately I ended up fixing it myself as it turned out to be a bit of solder that had dropped between two legs on the GPROM.
 
Has anyone had a pin that they didn't need to work on? There's always something that needs doing.
Personally i don't think people should buy pins if they're not prepared to work on them. I like some vintage cars but I'm not prepared to own when because i really can't be ****ed to work on cars. Much rather be stood in doors with the tv on, beer in one hand, quarter spanner in the other.
I suppose if you're willing to pay somebody to come out and fix the thing then it's all good.
Reliability doesn't keep engineers in work
 
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where will Atari come on the list LOL touch wood my only Atari pin boots but getting anything is near impossible and have boxes of doner parts (just in case!)
Zac are a bit like later gottliebs - great when they work. PITA when dead
 
*NOOB ALERT*
So is there a machine that is generally very reliable?
Are there any a "Noob" should 100% avoid??
What about companies ingeneral. Is Stern generally more reliable then Gottlieb or a Bally more then Data East???
Im in the market for my 1st machine and these are all questions I have. What about the easiest to fix when things go south???
Sorry for all the questions guys :D
 
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Posting on here when you have problems will usually get you the answer/fix as long as you can follow instructions etc.

There are machines that are considered more problematic (due to complexity of toys etc on playfield) but all are ultimately fixable.....:hmm:

Personally I would avoid games like sttng and tz just because they have so much that can go wrong. Saying that that is why they are such good games, they have so much to them.

I simpler game playfield will be easier fixed but the longevity of the game (especially if it's your only one) may not be as long.

Basically the better the game is the harder it can be to fix if it goes wrong. A less mechanical game like say Cftbl would be my recommendation for a first game as it has more depth to it than it first seems and there isn't anything to complex if it goes pear shaped

Good luck with your search

Edit. Should have said these recommendations are based on you wanting a modern dmd based game. As oviously there are much less complex games out there
 
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All machines can break whether they're brand new or ancient. Generally I would say the newer games tend to be more reliable but mainly just because they're newer. I guess the more complicated games like TZ and STTNG can go wrong more just because theres more parts of failure. (TZ was my first machine, and STTNG my second!) I wouldn't really let that put you off buying one though as I don't think they're really any more difficult to repair than any other machines, its just a case of there being more of the same kinds of mechanisms/electronics. The faults on these games are so well documented now that any fault you're likely to come across has been seen so often before that the answer is only a quick google search away or at worst a question on here.

If anything a "noob" is probably best keeping away from Gottliebs mainly as the spares are quite a bit harder to come by. As a first machine I'd recommend a 90's Bally Williams or a Stern though.
 
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JohnD83 said:
*NOOB ALERT*
So is there a machine that is generally very reliable?
Are there any a "Noob" should 100% avoid??
What about companies ingeneral. Is Stern generally more reliable then Gottlieb or a Bally more then Data East???
Im in the market for my 1st machine and these are all questions I have. What about the easiest to fix when things go south???
Sorry for all the questions guys :D
Click to expand...

I don't think there is a golden rule. I had a Star Trek Next Generation (considered complex/risky by some) and had no issues with it at all. I've had others that had a few problems, but never anything that was unfixable, especially with the advice on here.

Pick a game you can afford, buy it from a member on here, ask a question about it's value in the stickied thread in the noob section if you get an offer by PM and are unsure what it's really worth, and never discuss anything related to a pinball purchase with your wife until it's sat in your house.
 
JohnD83 said:
*NOOB ALERT*
So is there a machine that is generally very reliable?
Are there any a "Noob" should 100% avoid??
What about companies ingeneral. Is Stern generally more reliable then Gottlieb or a Bally more then Data East???
Im in the market for my 1st machine and these are all questions I have. What about the easiest to fix when things go south???
Sorry for all the questions guys :D
Click to expand...

All good advice above. An idea of budget or machine type/era might help refine it for you.

I reckon SM is a really good first game - solid enough Stern build quality back then and a reliable SAM board set, but it's probably £2.5-£3k...

TZ was also my 1st game, steep learning curve!
 
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STTNG was my first machine too. Apart from getting the Legend over once to fix a 2-balls-launched issue that predictably turned out to be a dodgy opto underneath (and needed a jillion parts removing to get to it) it played fault free for 5 years, at least a thousand games.

This is turning into the STTNG thread
 
Thanks for the responses guys :thumbs: Budget is below £2000 and must be a DMD. Flintstones is my 1st choice but after that then i am open to ideas. Ill not be buying till the end of January mind asI have a Few things i need to take care of before then...
 
Always expect some tweaks now and then, hope you get lucky with a settled machine first off! It can be infuriating as a beginner with lots of odd little issues, especially for a machine that's been heavily used/abused or operated heavily.
 
@Spadge hopefully what ever I go for will be of decent quality. Is it possible to pick up a Stern for under £2k??? My thunking is that they would likely be easier to source parts with them still being in business...
 
JohnD83 said:
@Spadge hopefully what ever I go for will be of decent quality. Is it possible to pick up a Stern for under £2k??? My thunking is that they would likely be easier to source parts with them still being in business...
Click to expand...

Just pick something you like and will enjoy and enjoy the ongoing education - and addiction. Don't worry to much about parts for older machines, fairly easy and common parts for most Williams/Bally/Midway 90s games, other than ones with unique common break plastics and such.
 
Spadge said:
Just pick something you like and will enjoy and enjoy the ongoing education - and addiction. Don't worry to much about parts for older machines, fairly easy and common parts for most Williams/Bally/Midway 90s games, other than ones with unique common break plastics and such.
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Thanks for the advice :thumbs: I have a few ideas of what Im after and I'll be putting out a post at the end of the month to see what is available. Till then I'll be on the look out for possibilities.
 
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