anyone who has bought a pinball machine has the ability to take a loss - confuctus saidThats cause you an afford to take a loss, most people can't
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Is pinball in trouble in the UK?
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The scene has changed for sure.
I would have liked a NIB Dune or Winchester.
But, 12k for a single game?
Or 15k for a Stern LE, that doesn't have that much extra over a pro.
I bought a Jackbot for around £2.5 and have as much fun on that as a 12k game ( the pinsound 2050 mix is fantastic ).
Over the years I have sold tons of games for losses, sometimes over 1k.
But, I ain't buying a NIB and taking a 4k loss!
The value just isn't there.
I would have liked a NIB Dune or Winchester.
But, 12k for a single game?
Or 15k for a Stern LE, that doesn't have that much extra over a pro.
I bought a Jackbot for around £2.5 and have as much fun on that as a 12k game ( the pinsound 2050 mix is fantastic ).
Over the years I have sold tons of games for losses, sometimes over 1k.
But, I ain't buying a NIB and taking a 4k loss!
The value just isn't there.
You only take the loss when you sell it though, if you never sell you'll never lose.
OP
OP
I'm slightly reassured so many people have piled into my thread at least, thought half the community must have carked it. This is why Neil is a miss, plenty to say for himself which is a good thing imo.
But as someone mentioned, possibly two issues, one being pricing and the second being the community. I'm less ****d about the pricing, feel like that will inevitably sort itself, I hope the community stays strong though, pinball is only fun in groups imo.
But as someone mentioned, possibly two issues, one being pricing and the second being the community. I'm less ****d about the pricing, feel like that will inevitably sort itself, I hope the community stays strong though, pinball is only fun in groups imo.
elnicky
Registered
Being in Bristol (Playback) might bias this a fair bit, but from my observations pinball is doing really well (in Central Bristol there's currently 5 places with pinball machines!). Also young people (<35) are regularly playing and loving pinball machines (even machines as old as Grand Lizard being surprisingly popular!).
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The other issue re pricing is that games take ages to get fully coded.
Stern is taking longer and longer to get to 1.0.
So, you never really know if you are going to like the finished version.
I bought Jaws and didn't really like it early code.
But at 1.0 its code is fantastic.
Stern is taking longer and longer to get to 1.0.
So, you never really know if you are going to like the finished version.
I bought Jaws and didn't really like it early code.
But at 1.0 its code is fantastic.
An interesting topic and people are coming st it from many different angles.
Virtually all of the larger arcades (for want of a better word) are located in the South PBR, SWL, Medway, etc.. Meaning a hefty trek for anyone North of Watford.
These venues appear to be busy everytime I've gone to a comp, but the majority of people are from the South with shorter travel times.
Lots of people I see at these venues don't have multiple machines at home, so for them able to go to these venues regularly Pinball is booming.
For those further North who have lost Tilt & Electric circus recently, public pinball is definitely declining.
The age demographic is definitely becoming younger and people in general are more diverse compared to just 10 years ago. Which is definitely a good thing.
Price is a different thing altogether. Pre Covid it used to be regularly said that you wouldn't lose money on a pinball purchase. (Which was ridiculous, but plenty if people bought the lie.)
During Covid there was a massive spike in demand, and many owners cashed in, and prices rose - and they kept rising on the second hand market.
Not surprisingly the dealers and manufacturers saw this and decided to follow suit. Why wouldn't they, it's their business.
As the new buyers either lost interest or needed the money tied up for other things they were faced with the reality that demand on the second hand market had dropped and they were looking at losing significant money. Some grimly held on others got out at a loss.
Manufacturers however clearly are still doing good business and see no reason to drop their prices. They are obviously still selling as many as they need to be profitable, hence the surge in new manufacturers.
If there wasn't the demand, they'd have folded by now, as previous new manufacturers have in previous years.
I used to buy, and then move on 6 months later, at an average loss of £500 or so - and have had well over 50 machines through my doors in a relatively short time. It did mean that prior to JP I pretty much knew every game inside out, and really looked forward to discovering a new game, learning it, beating the wizard then moving it on.
Realistically that would now mean a 2k loss which, for me at least, is unsustainable.
Due to to the lack of opportunity for many large comps and venues, and as importantly slow down in turnover of machines at these venues, I don't feel the need or desire to go to every event in the UK, and it seems others feel the same. Instead they will go to a few big comps abroad.
Pinfest is still as popular as it ever is, so the demand is clearly still there.
As for the forum, as you learn more, amd make new friends, you don't need to continually ask questions.
A lot of people are also put off by the abuse (perceived or otherwise), banal comments and posts, so don't post as much.
I dont post as much as I used to, but still come on most days and read what's going on. Some of what I read makes me fear for humanity in general!
TLDR: for some people pinball is booming, for others pinball is declining. Personal circumstances and what you want from the hobby will determine how you see it.
Virtually all of the larger arcades (for want of a better word) are located in the South PBR, SWL, Medway, etc.. Meaning a hefty trek for anyone North of Watford.
These venues appear to be busy everytime I've gone to a comp, but the majority of people are from the South with shorter travel times.
Lots of people I see at these venues don't have multiple machines at home, so for them able to go to these venues regularly Pinball is booming.
For those further North who have lost Tilt & Electric circus recently, public pinball is definitely declining.
The age demographic is definitely becoming younger and people in general are more diverse compared to just 10 years ago. Which is definitely a good thing.
Price is a different thing altogether. Pre Covid it used to be regularly said that you wouldn't lose money on a pinball purchase. (Which was ridiculous, but plenty if people bought the lie.)
During Covid there was a massive spike in demand, and many owners cashed in, and prices rose - and they kept rising on the second hand market.
Not surprisingly the dealers and manufacturers saw this and decided to follow suit. Why wouldn't they, it's their business.
As the new buyers either lost interest or needed the money tied up for other things they were faced with the reality that demand on the second hand market had dropped and they were looking at losing significant money. Some grimly held on others got out at a loss.
Manufacturers however clearly are still doing good business and see no reason to drop their prices. They are obviously still selling as many as they need to be profitable, hence the surge in new manufacturers.
If there wasn't the demand, they'd have folded by now, as previous new manufacturers have in previous years.
I used to buy, and then move on 6 months later, at an average loss of £500 or so - and have had well over 50 machines through my doors in a relatively short time. It did mean that prior to JP I pretty much knew every game inside out, and really looked forward to discovering a new game, learning it, beating the wizard then moving it on.
Realistically that would now mean a 2k loss which, for me at least, is unsustainable.
Due to to the lack of opportunity for many large comps and venues, and as importantly slow down in turnover of machines at these venues, I don't feel the need or desire to go to every event in the UK, and it seems others feel the same. Instead they will go to a few big comps abroad.
Pinfest is still as popular as it ever is, so the demand is clearly still there.
As for the forum, as you learn more, amd make new friends, you don't need to continually ask questions.
A lot of people are also put off by the abuse (perceived or otherwise), banal comments and posts, so don't post as much.
I dont post as much as I used to, but still come on most days and read what's going on. Some of what I read makes me fear for humanity in general!
TLDR: for some people pinball is booming, for others pinball is declining. Personal circumstances and what you want from the hobby will determine how you see it.
Pinball rocks and always will. It’s perfectly healthy in my opinion.
I still strongly believe once our generation is in its 70s / starts drying that is the end of pinball, there will literally be no one left to who can afford or even cares enough to buy them. They will always be around in museums and stuff but won’t be any pinball companies left and none out on location.
I’ll report back in 30 years to see if my prediction is true or not
I’ll report back in 30 years to see if my prediction is true or not
There are a huge amount of pinball owners who are not involved with the community what so ever and some of these people I know have 10+ games.
Every single year my total call-outs/house calls increases, I've been exceptionally ill and barely working this last year but even so when I have been able to work I've been mobbed and it's been my busiest year yet, most of those customers are new faces. When chatting I'll usually ask people if they're involved in the community, forums or meets etc. and for the most part people don't know a pinball community even exists!
So I don't think for one bit pinball is dying, there are a vast amount of hidden machine owners and collectors who simply don't know we exist, or don't care that we exist... I do my bit and tell them about the forum but my guess would be lot of them don't sign up
Every single year my total call-outs/house calls increases, I've been exceptionally ill and barely working this last year but even so when I have been able to work I've been mobbed and it's been my busiest year yet, most of those customers are new faces. When chatting I'll usually ask people if they're involved in the community, forums or meets etc. and for the most part people don't know a pinball community even exists!
So I don't think for one bit pinball is dying, there are a vast amount of hidden machine owners and collectors who simply don't know we exist, or don't care that we exist... I do my bit and tell them about the forum but my guess would be lot of them don't sign up
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Thats cause you an afford to take a loss, most people can't
That's two schools of thought isn't it. I see it like this:
My wife and I went on a cruise this year. Technically we made a huge loss - didn't get back any of the money we'd spent, and the cruise only lasted 10 days.
Is that really a "loss?" Depends how much we enjoyed the cruise v how much it cost.
If you buy a pin, keep a decent length of time, and have loads of fun playing it with family and friends, does it matter if you end up selling it for less than you paid?
Ray Foster came out with the statement out the blue at the Kettering pinball owners show in 1995 that pinball was dead
Both my Bride and his Robocop left the show unsold @ £200 each
Poorly attented show IIRC
Williams shut its arcade divisions in 1999
Most WPC games by then had been going for export @ £250 a pop as no buyers for them here.
January trade show in 1993 had over 50 pins. In 2001 2 High Roller Casino sat forlawn on the Electrocoin stand
Then the internet took hold and eBay gave pinball a shop window.
Stern up the game with TSSP and LOTR and market shifted from operator to domestic
Pinball is very niche and us in the bubble see the crowds at PINFEST and shows like PLAY EXPO but commercial pinball in hard. Much harded here than in the US. Tournaments are popular but players as said are starting to pick which ones to go for.
Domestic pinball in the doldrum as prices need to reset to pre covid level. New game buyers seem immune but second hand seller just cant stomach the losses on games bought in a boom
quality still sells - that MM on eBay could make 5 figures. Well restored classics sell well. Run of the mill games of all eras COULD open the door to new owners if priced right. Some site owners tell me that a lot of their players are 20 to 30s . Love or loathe , players like Stern IC and the games generally keeping running.
EAG 26 is my 40th annual trade show. End of January I shall raise a glass to High Speed on its 40th birthday. Time moves on.
"Hey its only pinball" Rudy
"Pinball Forever" Centaur
Both my Bride and his Robocop left the show unsold @ £200 each
Poorly attented show IIRC
Williams shut its arcade divisions in 1999
Most WPC games by then had been going for export @ £250 a pop as no buyers for them here.
January trade show in 1993 had over 50 pins. In 2001 2 High Roller Casino sat forlawn on the Electrocoin stand
Then the internet took hold and eBay gave pinball a shop window.
Stern up the game with TSSP and LOTR and market shifted from operator to domestic
Pinball is very niche and us in the bubble see the crowds at PINFEST and shows like PLAY EXPO but commercial pinball in hard. Much harded here than in the US. Tournaments are popular but players as said are starting to pick which ones to go for.
Domestic pinball in the doldrum as prices need to reset to pre covid level. New game buyers seem immune but second hand seller just cant stomach the losses on games bought in a boom
quality still sells - that MM on eBay could make 5 figures. Well restored classics sell well. Run of the mill games of all eras COULD open the door to new owners if priced right. Some site owners tell me that a lot of their players are 20 to 30s . Love or loathe , players like Stern IC and the games generally keeping running.
EAG 26 is my 40th annual trade show. End of January I shall raise a glass to High Speed on its 40th birthday. Time moves on.
"Hey its only pinball" Rudy
"Pinball Forever" Centaur
Pinball is fun, machines are to be played. Go visit locations, take your friends, help keep the doors open. If venues keep closing pinball will be in real trouble, in the hands of collectors only. I'm massively thankful to all the people that put their games on location.
I bought my first pin last Christmas, financial circumstances changed so was finally able to get into the hobby. I have a 16 year old and him and his mates love playing my pins but would never go all in for two reasons:
Cost and nowhere near to play ( north west) . When I told them the price of games both new and second hand they could not believe it - the price of a good second hand car and over a years take home pay for most, they will stick with the X box.
I get you can get into the hobby relatively cheap but you need to be handy and the young want the more up to date modern games that they can relate to.
I worry about the future - I went to Pinfest and it was mainly a " more mature" audience.
There are so many new releases which is great but I am concerned the market will become saturated - where are all these machines going ? however, that could be a good thing as the second hand market will need to adjust from the leavers of supply and demand.
Cost and nowhere near to play ( north west) . When I told them the price of games both new and second hand they could not believe it - the price of a good second hand car and over a years take home pay for most, they will stick with the X box.
I get you can get into the hobby relatively cheap but you need to be handy and the young want the more up to date modern games that they can relate to.
I worry about the future - I went to Pinfest and it was mainly a " more mature" audience.
There are so many new releases which is great but I am concerned the market will become saturated - where are all these machines going ? however, that could be a good thing as the second hand market will need to adjust from the leavers of supply and demand.
Those people who buy every game in the highest possible spec, they don’t worry about space - if they run out, they just build another massive structure or dig another basement - these whales are not people like you or me. And there are easily 500-1000 of them, so the small niche boutique companies can sell out to just them.
Of course 5-10y later when those companies are inevitably bust and the game needs parts, there’s a problem: but also a business opportunity for someone enterprising.
There’s definitely loooooaaaaads of new games hitting the market now, way more than 5 years ago, and I’d say too many unless they’re happy just selling to the whales I mentioned above.
The pinball scene is as big now as it has been since 1999 and there are more pinheads. Which is great! And if prices of games with dot matrix or alphanumeric screens tumble further, then woop woop! I’ll be getting my ass deeper into System 11 and some proper 80s titles, back when playability and the fun factor were the most important things.
A 1990 Rollergames will not, I believe, suffer the same fate as the Ford Escort RS Cosworth, as it’s still cheap to buy, to run, and to play. I believe that’s an easy lesson to pass on to our grandchildren
Of course 5-10y later when those companies are inevitably bust and the game needs parts, there’s a problem: but also a business opportunity for someone enterprising.
There’s definitely loooooaaaaads of new games hitting the market now, way more than 5 years ago, and I’d say too many unless they’re happy just selling to the whales I mentioned above.
The pinball scene is as big now as it has been since 1999 and there are more pinheads. Which is great! And if prices of games with dot matrix or alphanumeric screens tumble further, then woop woop! I’ll be getting my ass deeper into System 11 and some proper 80s titles, back when playability and the fun factor were the most important things.
A 1990 Rollergames will not, I believe, suffer the same fate as the Ford Escort RS Cosworth, as it’s still cheap to buy, to run, and to play. I believe that’s an easy lesson to pass on to our grandchildren
Kaijuball
Site Supporter
I know it's not pinball, but I go to comic cons, and the only collecting scene doing well, is Pokemon.
To be fair, it's probably because they dont look, rather than anything else....
I'm going to make a couple of non popular observations, but which I believe though are very valid to the core question of this thread.
Both relate to the accessilbilty to buy lower end machines, and therefore reducing the introduction of new players.
1. Entry point machines. £500-1500 quid mark.
How is the average Joe supposed to get into pinball when the machines are scooped up in nairly a minute of them being listed for sale.
I have watched on as one individual in particular has grabbed just about anything out there in this price range all over the UK.
Surely this has a detrimental effect on the hobby being widespread.
2. Even more unpopular on here I'm sure.....
Hoarders.
Keeping pins in lock ups, containers, warehouses or wotnot. Or tombstoned machines becuse of no room.
Would like to point out difference from a big collection wihich can be played.
Multiple project machines that if they were honest with themselves will not happen.
This reduces availabilty to the market, drives up prices and the pins are not being used.
I know there will be the arguement 'You can do what you want with them' but really by not having
more accessibility to machines, the general public will struggle to spawn new players/collectors.
Exposure is driven down and ability to play localised.
Yes new machines are available but as a community we have 'rationalised' the price of pins.
In reality though they are ludicrously priced. Check out the reaction of a non pin player when thay ask
how much one of these are?
Both relate to the accessilbilty to buy lower end machines, and therefore reducing the introduction of new players.
1. Entry point machines. £500-1500 quid mark.
How is the average Joe supposed to get into pinball when the machines are scooped up in nairly a minute of them being listed for sale.
I have watched on as one individual in particular has grabbed just about anything out there in this price range all over the UK.
Surely this has a detrimental effect on the hobby being widespread.
2. Even more unpopular on here I'm sure.....
Hoarders.
Keeping pins in lock ups, containers, warehouses or wotnot. Or tombstoned machines becuse of no room.
Would like to point out difference from a big collection wihich can be played.
Multiple project machines that if they were honest with themselves will not happen.
This reduces availabilty to the market, drives up prices and the pins are not being used.
I know there will be the arguement 'You can do what you want with them' but really by not having
more accessibility to machines, the general public will struggle to spawn new players/collectors.
Exposure is driven down and ability to play localised.
Yes new machines are available but as a community we have 'rationalised' the price of pins.
In reality though they are ludicrously priced. Check out the reaction of a non pin player when thay ask
how much one of these are?
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I would concur. Recently picked up a pin bought on eBay from the Midlands area and the guy selling loved playing pinball but could only have one at home, chatting to him he was completely unaware of the Midlands pinball league or Pinfest which isnt too far from where he lives, as wasnt aware of Tilt in Brum before it closed either.
Traditional forums are dying.
Locally we had two pinball forums, one has been dead for a few years, it has had about 50 posts per year.
The other has a good solid core, but has only 30 posts per day.
I have found that if i have a technical question, there are pages on FaceBook I can use
Before Covid, there were always a few meets and gatherings, but most of those guys now feel that it was too much work to get their games up and running , so most of those have disappeared
I also see that the discussion has changed. I want to talk about old games. Go on Pinside and it is all about 'What is coming next?" and "Which LE will go with my other LE's?"
Locally we had two pinball forums, one has been dead for a few years, it has had about 50 posts per year.
The other has a good solid core, but has only 30 posts per day.
I have found that if i have a technical question, there are pages on FaceBook I can use
Before Covid, there were always a few meets and gatherings, but most of those guys now feel that it was too much work to get their games up and running , so most of those have disappeared
I also see that the discussion has changed. I want to talk about old games. Go on Pinside and it is all about 'What is coming next?" and "Which LE will go with my other LE's?"
There's just no helping some people dude
gnarled112
Site Supporter
Atleast the UK will have a decent pinball museum in ~60 years time when we all die off and grandkids donate the pins we've hoarded to a museum 
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Don't buy what?
Kelsbells
Site Supporter
Don’t buy that he has any need to pretend he’s busy because it’s strategically good for business..people wait a month or more sometimes to get games delivered and it’s not because he’s sitting at home twiddling his thumbs cunningly wanting customers to be under the illusion he’s busy !
I nominate Martin for the Pinball Hall of Fame (the proper one, not the nonsense one with Elton John and Roger Daltrey in it). I bet he knows everyone.
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Its a figure of speech.