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Interesting thoughts.....

Load of rubbish... Moaning about modern machines being too expensive and saying the games offer no one then machines of the 90's lol
 
Basically Stern charging top dollar with no real innovation (recycling of the same old mechs etc), compared with machines of the 90's.... Also JJP producing "better quality" (Similar to B/W etc) machines, however the prices on all being astronmical.

the one line was... If you ignore the theme, and the new Dots on the screens, whats the difference between them??

Difficult to summarize... however, worth a listen in the car or on the way to the office... :)
 
Load of rubbish... Moaning about modern machines being too expensive and saying the games offer no one then machines of the 90's lol

But it;s true.... Other than the display, what's changed since the 90's.. wheres the real innovation???

Look at PC tech... leaps and bounds... Or TV's.... or any Tech... it;s all moved on dramatically... Pins have had colour screens... that's it.... Just different layouts and different Artwork.
 
But it;s true.... Other than the display, what's changed since the 90's.. wheres the real innovation???

Look at PC tech... leaps and bounds... Or TV's.... or any Tech... it;s all moved on dramatically... Pins have had colour screens... that's it.... Just different layouts and different Artwork.

Name some innovations we are missing...
 
Wheres the new ideas.. where's the innovation???

All stern have realistically done is create a smaller boardset (which realistically makes next to no difference to the player at all)... I would have said the biggest innovation has been to use LED's.... but thats it! and thats not innovation - thats just people pandering to todays modern requirements (of some) for less power and prighter machines - and some could argue that it was the consumers that led this in the older machines...
(Some would argue the new board set hasnt been any more reliable than previous machines anyhow)
 
A big point was the cost

In 1994 a Twilight Zone cost $3410
Today with inflation it would cost $5800

A new in box Deadpool Pro currently retails for $5800

So pinballs have actually got no more expensive outside of inflation...
 
A big point was the cost

In 1994 a Twilight Zone cost $3410
Today with inflation it would cost $5800

A new in box Deadpool Pro currently retails for $5800

So pinballs have actually got no more expensive outside of inflation...

But that wasnt my arguement!

My argument is that nothing realistically has moved on....

(in fact, you could argue that there was no pro/premium/LE then - so a TZ would probably be comparable to a Premium or LE - and that's where it starts to fall apart... however that wasn't my key point!)
 
I was talking to someone this week about Baywatch (its what I talk about when not talking about Popeye :D) - the point being exactly this ... if Stern released a machine now with the Baywatch playfield layout people would be hosing themselves ....unique playfield layout, multiple ramps and wireforms and VUKS, 4 flippers, drop target bank, trapdoor lock, clever divertor gate to reverse ball back round an orbit etc ...and this is a 20+ year old design. So a 20 year old design is offering more than most Pro model Sterns do now.

Code is a different matter I guess.
 
I do agree with this one.

Same thing happened with em's.

1950 - 1955 Gottlieb. The innovation was incredible. And the ruleset's had multiple ways to win, dual scoring etc etc.

From that period until 1979, em's were less innovative, simpler. ( There are exceptions of course ).

But games got faster and more fun to play and the late 70's em's are simple, fast and addictive fun.

Fast forward to now.

90's games had way more innovative mechanical mechs than we have now.

Latest Stern's are kind of toyless, but fast, in yer face and due to better rules, addictive to play.

I love playing the latest Stern's but they sure ain't innovative. Code is getting better though.

Maiden pro is a blast to play but there is no 'wow, look at that ' feature or mech on the playfield.

Maybe Deeproot in their 5 day thing will do things differently :hmm:
 
Innovation: Connect the machines to the internet - allow you to join a multi player game on-line, global high scores, instant tourneys, etc. in-built cameras & mic for instant video feed, self levelling, intelligent self diagnostics, downloadable themes for music, lighting effects, etc - ability to customise or create your own. Ability to factory customise your own theme (similar to speccing up a new car). Tons of great ideas - nobody doing it - surely a gap in the market?
 
It was like was being discussed the other day on here... Deadpool still had DMD diagnostics and old fashioned menus.. that's just sloppy...
 
Has the code improved the games - I would say the deeper games and coding is an innovation to older more linear games....
 
Code is the biggest innovation... you can essentially change a game entirely with a code update... There are now deeper rulesets then the 90's...

But essentially what is pinball

pinball noun [ U ] us /ˈpɪnˌbɔl/ a game played on a machine in which the player tries to prevent a ball from rolling off the end of a sloping surface by causing the ball to bounce between devices that score points: a pinball machine.

Its a steep slippery slope when you start messing with what makes it great in the first place... I don't want them connected to the internet, I don't want them to connect to your phone... I don't want them to be compare to games consoles!

Pinball is physical, emotional and social

Pinball doesn't need to innovation technically... The games now are deep, fast and addictive bring you back for more! I complete Addams Family in a month or so from having... Game of Thrones took me 2 years... Better value for money I would say
 
Excellent points @AlanJ. I think the WiFi high score thing is about 10 years too late. Considering games like Golden tee have done it for years.

Code may have improved the games but that Is to suit the home market (which I assume makes up well over half the sales nowadays). But it is still shocking releasing games with unfinished code. Just like patches on new video games. That is definitely the less desirable side to new games. I would be pretty annoyed if I bought a BMW and drove it into a wall, only to be told the brakes hadn't been calibrated and it would be 12months till it would be.
 
Only thing I can comment on is build quality for 60's to 90's.

The 60's Bally is bomb proof. Cast metal work. Steel side rails. Secure playfield lock down. 9 laminate beech/mapel ply playfield, 15 ply cabinet, engineered mechs, not to forget the timing and scoring clocks and the million real leaf switches and relays.

Each age of machine quality goes down. Same as any other product.

My parents have a first generation Kenwood food mixer. All metal, body, gears, the whole shebang. I got a newer one. Needless to say when my parents leave this earth I'll be using their one, mine will be knackered.

I can see my grandkids using the 60's pinball but I don't think any of the others will last that long.
 
Innovation: Connect the machines to the internet - allow you to join a multi player game on-line, global high scores, instant tourneys, etc. in-built cameras & mic for instant video feed, self levelling, intelligent self diagnostics, downloadable themes for music, lighting effects, etc - ability to customise or create your own. Ability to factory customise your own theme (similar to speccing up a new car). Tons of great ideas - nobody doing it - surely a gap in the market?

I had this conversation with jersey jack and gave him my ideas for innovation. Similar things to above. He didnt say no but this look says maybe they will be hard to achieve
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Innovation isn’t important - good game play is critical and gameplay has been innovative and has moved forwards. Pinball is about ball and flippers and when that isn’t remembered you get rubbish.
 
Mech I loved on newer games-
The hammer smash/ball lock on met premium and le
Tracey island multiball release on thunderbirds
Innovation, or at least progression..
Also like the active diagnostic switch test on the LCD on jjp games.Me and @chris b had a play with that on jjp potc at Pinfest
 
Pinball has not really moved on significantly since TAF. The manufacturers are not investing enough in R&D to drive real innovation as sales volumes don't support it.

Backbox tv
Multi-colour LED playfield lights
Better digitised sounds (ACDC, Iron Maiden etc) add a lot
Hugely complicated rules that some love, some hate

All small beer imho, especially given cheapo build/ rubbish printing/ malfunctioning coding ..... nowadays
 
Scott Danesi said a while back that to get to the best sound from a speaker, the cone needs to be in a box of the right dimensions - hence the size of hi-fi speakers. You can't just mount a speaker in the bottom of a pinball cabinet - the size of which is dictated by the norms of the pinball industry - and expect it to produce good sound.

His solution in TNA is to mount the speaker in a box of optimum size, pointing upwards, with channels to move the sound waves round and down out of the bottom of the speaker cabinet. I am not an acoustic engineer but I can say that the sound TNA produces is fantastic.

It's just the sort of innovation that we are talking about here - Stern and JJP have been sticking speakers in the bottom of their cabs pointing downwards just like everyone else did in the past. Why has no one questioned it and improved it before now.

I have no doubt that there are loads more innovations waiting to be thought of when people look at the status quo and question why things are being done in that way.
 
Innovation isn’t important - good game play is critical and gameplay has been innovative and has moved forwards. Pinball is about ball and flippers and when that isn’t remembered you get rubbish.
21C innovation - remove that damn metal ball - it damages the playfield, the plastics, the rubbers, etc. the sooner we get rid.............





Only joking! :)
 
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