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Elektra - advice needed please

Jb3d

Jb3d

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Joined
Jan 23, 2015
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429
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Matlock
Alias
John
Hi, My Elektra has been working fine, including an evening of substantial play. BUT today on the second game whenever I hit the flipper button the machine turns off. It then turns itself on again in attract mode. I played a 'game' letting the balls just drain through with no flipper use and this worked fine. I don't know if this is a related symptom but the left flipper has been a bit sticky recently and has stuck in an up position a few times. I had assumed this was a mechanical rather than electronic issue and was going to take a look and perhaps fit a new sleeve.
Advice on the shutting down issue would be very helpful. What is the sequence of investigations I should make?
Thanks for your help.
John
 
Just guessing here, sounds like the sticking flipper is causing trouble as you have multiple flippers on each side in that game.

To start with, I would attend to this to free it up. See if that cures it

If not then, either
  1. A power issue. The surge in consumption when you hit the flipper button might be starving the game of power elsewhere,
  2. A connector issue, something shaking loose when the game vibrates
I would suggest that you test the voltages on the boards using the touch points and report back. Correct voltages given here ...

http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/ballyss/rep/index1.htm
 
Thanks @DRD I'll do those things and then report back. Appreciate your help.
John
 
OK update on the Elektra that turns itself off mid game.
1. Sorted the sticky left lower flipper in case that was implicated. I don't think this was the cause because I then found I could trigger the shutdown by hitting just the right flippers. So it was looking , as @DRD suggested, as if flipper action was triggering the shutdown but not specifically the sticky flipper.
2. Checked the voltages on the power module and these are the results set against what the schematic says they should be:
TP1 6.9 VDC should be 6.5
TP 2 201 vdc should be 230 (190 unreg) ? What does the 190 unreg mean?
TP3 10.7 vdc should be 11.? Schematic is blurry can't be sure of the figure
TP 4 5.9 vac should be 6.5
TP5 40.4 vdc should be 43
Question? Are any of these variations from spec significant enough to cause shutdown?
BUT I also followed @DRD s advice and re-seated all the connectors on the boards.
Since then I haven't been able to create a shutdown even with 'extravagant flipper action.
HOwever the original,problem was intermittent so I may just need to play some more to see if it returns.
I would greatly value comments and advice . As a newbie I am learning a lot from you all - who would have thought I would learn how to use a multimeter and test voltages?
Thanks.
 
Hello, John,

I wondered if the machine was picking up a false 'slam' tilt, which does exactly as you describe, i.e. cut out, run the Mpu self-test, then go into attract mode. Elektra has an extra switch on the l/h flipper button, used for the target bank equivalent of 'Lane Change', and it might've been possible for a bad diode to cause a slam. But you've found that it also happened from the r/h flippers.

Re. the test point values; TP 2, this is the power input for the display panels. It's termed '190 Unreg'(ulated) since the final correction into approx. 180v is carried out on the Solenoid Driver board. The one I'd be concerned about is TP3, which is the raw power for the Solenoid Driver board to produce the 5v output for most of the electronic circuits. I seem to recall that it should be around 12v.
 
Good call from Jay, a slam turns off the machine and then restores to attract mode after a fixed time. It reminds of a problem on my similar era GOLD BALL where it was false tilting - in my case it was the ceramic cap across the tilt bob if I clipped it (now replaced) it stopped. If it reoccurs and you have similar caps across the slam switches (normally 2) try clipping them to see if it goes away. Those caps may be pretty old now but make a big difference on the in game switches such as roll overs.
 
A bad connector was your most likely fault here. It is usually the first place to look for mad pinball faults.

These old games are very temperamental and your fault could be from a myriad of sources. The technology is 35 years old.

Things just fail. Use them and things fail. Don't use them and things fail. The greatest failure risks are moving them and intensive league or intensive pinball show play. Diodes and capacitors just die when they get old

The voltages you recorded do not sound too bad to me.

Check the mpu board (top left), the 5v is critical. Bad connectors/ dirty pins/ cracked solder joints on the pins can cause all manner of random faults. A drop in the 5v can cause faults like yours. So people either replace or clean the pins then 'reflow' solder on all these pins. If you are new to soldering, things could go very wrong at this point !!.



MPU board:
  • TP1 = +5 vdc
  • TP2 = +11.9 vdc
  • TP3 = +21.5 vdc (comes from +43 vdc solenoid voltage)
  • TP4 = Ground
  • TP5 = +5 vdc

In your shoes If the mpu voltage is OK, I would just play it until it fails. Try to get a pattern of what triggers any failures.

The switch matrix in these old games can develop faults due to faulty diodes or faulty capacitors on switches. But tracing these is quite a big job.


 
Thanks to @Jay Walker , @astyy and @DRD . I appreciate your advice. I've just played two long sessions on the machine about 15 games each and had one shut down in each session. So it is VERY intermittent, which makes it hard to be sure what triggers it. I've got the glass off and stood firing all the targets etc and couldn't trigger a shutdown. Also as I noted earlier I can stand and flip the flippers wildly and repeatedly and no problems. I will go away and explore all the very helpful suggestions you've given me and then I'll get back when I have something to report. Thanks again! John
 
John

Have your endeavours reduced the frequency of the problem ?

If so, it suggests the connectors. Just reseating them rarely permanently cures the issue. The pins and connectors will be dirty, pitted and corroded.

The proper thing to do is to replace all pins and connectors (upgrading to crimp type) but this is one helluva job. I do not do this unless I can see a problem on specific items

In your shoes I would
  • take photos
  • label the connectors so you know where to return them
  • remove the boards and refurb them one at a time so you can isolate any collateral damage. Turn game on after each board is returned to test it out,
  • reflow the pins per the video
  • Lightly clean the pins with the finest wet and dry paper you can get (used dry), something like 1200 grit
  • Rinse the refurbed pins down with flux remover (aerosol, maplin) on the solder side; isopropyl alcohol on the pins side
  • Look at the connectors, are any brown, burnt out ? - if so replace (i doubt you will need to, other than on the power board)
  • Find a stiff bit of stripped wire to lightly scrape the insides of the connector plugs, send ipa down too
  • Push every wire home with an idc pusher
image.jpeg

Pray
 
DRD said:
John

Have your endeavours reduced the frequency of the problem ?

If so, it suggests the connectors. Just reseating them rarely permanently cures the issue. The pins and connectors will be dirty, pitted and corroded.

The proper thing to do is to replace all pins and connectors (upgrading to crimp type) but this is one helluva job. I do not do this unless I can see a problem on specific items

In your shoes I would
  • take photos
  • label the connectors so you know where to return them
  • remove the boards and refurb them one at a time so you can isolate any collateral damage. Turn game on after each board is returned to test it out,
  • reflow the pins per the video
  • Lightly clean the pins with the finest wet and dry paper you can get (used dry), something like 1200 grit
  • Rinse the refurbed pins down with flux remover (aerosol, maplin) on the solder side; isopropyl alcohol on the pins side
  • Look at the connectors, are any brown, burnt out ? - if so replace (i doubt you will need to, other than on the power board)
  • Find a stiff bit of stripped wire to lightly scrape the insides of the connector plugs, send ipa down too
  • Push every wire home with an idc pusher
View attachment 38298

Pray
Click to expand...
Thanks @DRD . That sounds like good advice. Yes, you are right the frequency has now reduced considerably. I will,patiently go down this route and systematically go through the connectors. Thank you for taking the time to offer aadvice. I will report back in due course. Best wishes. John
 
Jb3d said:
Thanks @DRD . That sounds like good advice. Yes, you are right the frequency has now reduced considerably. I will,patiently go down this route and systematically go through the connectors. Thank you for taking the time to offer aadvice. I will report back in due course. Best wishes. John
Click to expand...

I had a problem on my Elektra of the times bonus targets not resetting and it was intermittent. Did similar and checked all voltages and OK. Noted that if I bridged the hole kicker to the target solenoid then it worked. Voltages on the solenoid appeared OK.

Anyway long story short.... it turned out to be the wire as it went into the connector was sometime breaking contact. Refitted in the connector and been fine ever since.

Old things develop some frustrating things to find. If I was a betting man it is probably a worn/lose/worn out connection somewhere. Heat tends to highlight the issues as you have found on long plays.

Good luck...

Andrew
 
Andrew65 said:
I had a problem on my Elektra of the times bonus targets not resetting and it was intermittent. Did similar and checked all voltages and OK. Noted that if I bridged the hole kicker to the target solenoid then it worked. Voltages on the solenoid appeared OK.

Anyway long story short.... it turned out to be the wire as it went into the connector was sometime breaking contact. Refitted in the connector and been fine ever since.

Old things develop some frustrating things to find. If I was a betting man it is probably a worn/lose/worn out connection somewhere. Heat tends to highlight the issues as you have found on long plays.

Good luck...

Andrew
Click to expand...
Thanks Andrew. Looks like that will be my route as you and @DRD suggest. I'll report back. Cheers. John
 
Loose or broken H V transistors on the driver board will also reset the game ,this happened on my nitro ground shaker ,mine had fractured .
Check with the machine switch off ,if thay are a bit loose as,there is 230v which is deadly !!
 
carl lawrence said:
Loose or broken H V transistors on the driver board will also reset the game ,this happened on my nitro ground shaker ,mine had fractured .
Check with the machine switch off ,if thay are a bit loose as,there is 230v which is deadly !!
Click to expand...
Thanks @carl lawrence , I'll add that check to my list of this to look at...and certainly with the power off! Cheers. John
 
@DRD regarding the idc push down tool...just looked on eBay where there seem to be lots of different types. Is there a particular size or format I'm looking for ? Thanks. John
 
There is ,I think Phil sell's them and Andy on there web sites :thumbs:

Ops sorry !! Forgot about John on his ( 1 stop pinball )
 
Just an update, especially for those of you kind enough to have offered advice. I've been playing the machine for long sessions every day to try to get a handle on what events precedes the shutdown/restart. Guess what? It hasn't stopped once. So I'll carry on thrashing it for a few more days to see if it stops again. Best wishes, John
 
Jb3d said:
Just an update, especially for those of you kind enough to have offered advice. I've been playing the machine for long sessions every day to try to get a handle on what events precedes the shutdown/restart. Guess what? It hasn't stopped once. So I'll carry on thrashing it for a few more days to see if it stops again. Best wishes, John
Click to expand...

That's normally what happens. Thus points toward and intermittent fault somewhere and they are the hardest to find.

At least u will be prepared when it happens again.

Good luck
 
Several of you ( including @Andrew65 , @DRD , @carl lawrence , @astyy , @Jay Walker kindly gave help and advice when my Elektra started switching itself off mid-game and then restarting about 30 seconds later. Following previous advice all connectors checked and seem OK, all voltages tested and within limits. No pattern to what triggered this and I discovered it would do it just when sitting quietly in attract mode with no-one near it – turned off, waited, came on again. It then settled down and seemed to play normally again for a few weeks. Now however things have gone from bad to worse. The switch-offs returned and became more frequent, then it took a long time to decide to come back on. Now it has died and won’t boot up at all. Backglass illumination comes on. No GI. In test mode gives a variable number of flashes and flickers.

Where do I start now please? Thanks as always for help and advice.
 
Sorry to hear about this. I have had this sort of problem before

I think where you are now, there are four options

1. Get Andy at Pinball Mania out to your game (or take it to him to save the call out fee). Or at least send him your elektra mpu board for testing and repair

2. Get someone else on here to give you a hand

3. Swap known working boards from your medusa into elektra if you are happy to do this yourself. Obviously the risk here is that you take medusa out too!

4. Buy a known working mpu board, or buy/ borrow an altek mpu. ALtek mpu boards make sense if you plan to own a few bally ss pinballs for years. You can swap them between games without needing to insert game roms or change jump settings. So they are good for diagnosing faults

You might have a faulty mpu or solenoid board, my guess would be mpu. I think these are the same boards as in your medusa. Medusa and elektra are from the same era, so should have common mpu and solenoid boards (check by looking at the part numberers on the boards)

If i were you, i would Swap the solenoid boards between the two games, to eliminate whether this was the source of the trouble. THis is easy enough

Then you need to get a known working mpu board into elektra, to see whether Elektra's mpu board is failing

You could put the medusa mpu board into elektra. The problem here is that this is not just a board swap and there is risk of collateral damage.

1. You need to write down the dip switch settings that existed on medusa and elektra

2. Put the elektra dip settings into medusa

3. Put the medusa game rom into elektra. Remove the elektra rom and insert the medusa rom very carefully. IF you are not careful you could snap legs off or insert incorrectly, which will fry the rom

4. Make sure that the jumper settings on the medusa mpu are the same as on elektra. Write down the medusa jump settings before you change them. This could mean soldering the board, with risk of damage

http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/ballyss/rep/index3.htm


5. Insert the board into elektra

Some settings lke the sound are done by using the test menu rather than the dip switches , so the game will sound different as these are forgotten when you swap mpu boards over. You just go through the test menu to about 17 or so (elektra manual will tell you)


Good luck
 
Open the backbox and ignoring first brief flicker count the led flashes on the cpu. If locked on solid check the voltage again both on the power board and again on the cpu tp5 5v. Can't remember which is the 12v test point.
 
I wouldn't swap boards at this stage. The Roms are fragile and may break in changing them over. You should be able to diagnose in situ.
 
Jb3d said:
Now however things have gone from bad to worse. The switch-offs returned and became more frequent, then it took a long time to decide to come back on. Now it has died and won’t boot up at all. Backglass illumination comes on. No GI. In test mode gives a variable number of flashes and flickers.

Where do I start now please? Thanks as always for help and advice.
Click to expand...

Sorry to sound pessimistic, but is there still a battery of some sort on the Mpu board? If so, does it look past its best, maybe even obviously leaking? I had a ratty old Stern Mpu board (much the same as the Bally item) like that, which worked, sometimes, if it felt like doing so, but didn't show consistent progress with the power-up self-test when in fault. IMC, corrosive leakage from the battery had crept under the socket for U8, the Cmos bookkeeping Ram, damaging the connecting pins inside.
 
Thank you very much for your advice @DRD , @Jay Walker and @pinballmania . The Elektra has an off board battery and there is no sign of historic battery damage. This was fitted by Jim @myPinballs at my request as soon as I got the machine and he also fitted the latest game rom. From memory Jim commented that the board looked OK at that time. My Medusa has an Altek board that Andy @pinballmania fitted so would be available for test swapping. I' m going to start with the least intrusive measures and see what the start up flashes currently look like and retest the 5v and 12v test points. I'll report back tomorrow. Thanks again.
 
As soon as I saw this I thought capacitor replacement on the PSU needs doing before anything else... @Nedreud will probably chip in with specifics... :thumbs:
 
Have many flashes do u get when starting up from the MPU board as this may point you to what is failing.

It sounds as if a cap may have gone out somewhere. Heat related and when cooled down it was OK. Now it wont boot so possible a cap has finally gone out all together. Had an issue with my flippers on another game (Lost World) due to a flakey cap that tests OK but when replaced I have never had an issue since.
 
OK, I've spent the afternoon downstairs with the Elektra. I went intending to follow Andy @pinballmania 's steps initially BUT...the darn thing worked perfectly. I turned it on, 7 flashes (1 pause 6) went in to attract then fired up OK for a game. I spent an hour playing the machine including some physical nudging to see if I could shake something loose...no problems. Left it to sit in attract mode while a played another machine...no problem. Turned it off and on a few times, came to life perfectly (with 7 flashes) every time. What now? I assume it isn't worth re-checking voltages at the moment...should I just wait until it crashes again and then test voltages to see what has gone out?
@Andrew65 and @Moonraker both mentioned failed caps. How would I test for this and which ones should I be looking at?
As always I'm very grateful for everyone's advice.
John
 
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