What's new
Pinball info

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

DESW Slingshot Locking on

RuzRuk

Registered
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
Messages
18
Location
East Wittering , West sussex
Hi everybody. I have a DE Star Wars that sometimes locks the left hand sling shot solenoid on. I have changed the solenoid coil, the coil diode and the Q 12 transistor and upgraded it to a Tip 102. type. I have tested the pre driver transistor and that seems to read OK on the DMM when compared to all the other pre drivers in the special coils bank at CN19. My next move is to replace the 7402 IC's located at position 12 on the CPU board.

This is driving me crazy as what ever I try only works for a few hours and then the solenoid re-locks on and causes major chaos to the pin. I lose the DMD. On start up the solenoids fire as if searching for a lost ball, the machine cycles the sound bites and the main house RCD trips but none of the fuses blow on the pin.

I am running the machine with the sling shot return wire disconnected from the connector block at CN19/8 on the CPU board and the machine is working perfectly.

Can any of you Tech Guy's advise me of a way forward or some other things to try ie testing of the 7402 IC's

Kind Regards

Russ
:)
 
The pre-drive DMM reading can lie! :doh:

Personally I would replace the whole coil drive system - 7402, pre-drive and Q12 (yep another new transistor). Also install an independant fuse (or circuit breaker) on the coil.

Fingers crossed in you sorting it!
 
Hi Moonraker. Many Thanks for your reply. I will replace the whole system as advised. What size fuse would you recommend and I assume it should be placed in the return line from the coil to the CPU board? also is there anything else deeper in the CPU board I should be looking at? Regards Russ
 
Depends what slowblow fuses you have - I'd say at a min 0.5 Amp, probably recommend 1 Amp and not larger than 1.5 Amps.

Have you tried re-seating cables on the CPU? I would also do that as a precaution, having cleared a locked coil this way in the past...

I would only tackle deeper CPU issues if replacing the whole coil drive system doesn't work and you continue to have a problem...
 
Have replaced both IC's at position 12 A&B also the pre driver and the transistor on Q12 circuit. Also installed new coils too both sing shots replaced connector at C19 and added fuses @750ma in the sling shot returns.
Game worked perfectly for two games and then went into melt down as described befor. Should I replace the 6821 pia chip or just get a replacement board?
 
Hi, there is another tack here we should try first. Earlier Data East machines (like the earlier Williams System 11 design they copied) had a number of what were known as "special solenoids". They were basically solenoids that required a really quick reaction, like pop bumpers and slingshots. The original thinking was that registering the switch being closed on the sling shot, getting that to the CPU, then having the CPU decide to fire the slingshot was going to be too slow. For those 6 special solenoids, the switch on the sling shot (or pop bumper, kicker, whatever) was connected to the driver board so that it could directly fire the solenoid. There would then be another switch on the component somewhere to tell the CPU it had been hit, so it can score points etc.

In these games it was also possible for the CPU to fire the solenoids too, if it wanted too, which meant that they could be used for other things. As time moved on, it was realised that the CPU was fast enough to handle these coils itself, and the technique of having the special solenoid switches take care of firing the solenoids directly was dropped.

However......

The circuitry for connecting the special solenoid switches and allowing the direct firing was left on the board. To allow the board to be used in older machines, ie keeping it backwards compatible. That apparently unused section can screw up, causing coils to lock on. At this point I shamelessly copy and paste from the old pinrepair site :

On games Back to the Future and later, there is a potential problem with this
backwards compatibility. The old special coil circuitry can be damaged, and
cause the special coils to lock on. This can be very frustrating. For example,
say a pop bumper coil locks on immediately when the game is powered on. After
replacing its associated TIP122 transistor and the 2N4401 pre-driver transistor,
and checking the coil's diode, the coil is still locked on! So go back a step
further, and replace the 7402 chip at location 12A or 12B. And still the coil is
locked on. Finally go all the way back, and replace the 6821 PIA chip at
location 8H or 9B. Yet still the coil is locked on!

The problem could be in the parallel, but unused, old special coil circuit!
If just one of the small capacitors at locations C40 to C45 (.1 mfd) shorts, its
associated coil can lock on. This is a very common, but confusing problem. Also,
one of the diodes at locations D1 to D6 (1N5234 or 1N4735, 6.2 volts zener), or
the resistor pack at R24/RA24 (4.7k x 8) can short (less likely, but still worth
checking). In CPU Revision 3 games, these components are unused, but they can
still become damaged!

On games prior to Back to the Future, I have seen a cases where a special
coil would not lock-on until a game was started or the game entered diagnostic
mode. This is a clear that the problem is *not* the driver transistors, but is
related to the Special Solenoid's switch circuit. In the case I repaired it was
one of the D1 to D6 1N5234 zener diodes next to connector CN18 (the special
solenoid switch input connector). These diodes are easy to test using a DMM set
to diode mode - .4 to .6 volts (or 1.8 volts if the DMM leads were reversed),
except for the shorted diode which tested 0 volts.

Now back to me :)

Tracking back through the SW schematic (which has some crap labelling), it looks like the cap and diode pair you should suspect are D5 and C44, and as mentioned above it could be the resistor array at RA24. The diode you can test per the notes above, also compare it to the other diodes next to it. C44 is tricky to test in place. The resistor array should show 4.7k between it's pin 1 (marked with dot normally) and each of the other 8 pins. In particular to pin number 8, which is the one connected to the redundant but trouble-making switch old switch line for the left slingshot.

Good luck. I'm sure we can get this worked out and fixed, if you have the patience :)
Mark
 
Mark. I wish I knew what the hell you were talking about:) Just when I thought I was starting to get the hang of the bigger words, you post this! Ha ha.
 
Hi Gaz I knew very little about PCB's until I bought this bum SW.
It has been a real crash course and a tough learning curve. But once you get your head round it things start to make sense. Glad Mark sent me the info I can see some light at the end of the tunnel.

Regards
Russ
 
Hi Mark. Thanks for the info things are making sense now and that is half the battle won.

Should I just de solder the cap and diode at D5 and C44 or all the cap's and diode's at CN18 as they are redundant anyway? Thus getting rid of that whole side of the problem.

This would just leave testing the RA24 resistor pack and if that's OK its down to the big soldering job on the 6821 PIA chips.

Thanks again for the help

Regards Russ
 
To end this thread I tested the RA24 resistor pack and the caps and diodes at CN18 they all checked out ok. This just left the large 40 pin IC's to replace. I chickened out and bought a new board from Pinball Palace. The guy's there said the new board would outlast the machine. The new CPU board is in with updated ROM's and is working perfectly. Thanks to everyone who replied with help, sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and pay the price.

Cheers Russ:wave::wave:
 
When the challenge of fixing something stops being a pleasure, time to pay for a replacement.
Job done, now you can play.
🍵
 
Back
Top Bottom