Cyclone - 3 Faults

[Gandalf]

New member here
I've had my Cyclone for many years now, it's been very reliable as it was in very good condition when I bought it, i've done plenty of minor repairs on it over the years, but all cosmetic or mechanical or very basic electronic.
before Xmas I was cleaning the trough under the spook-house and boomerang, there were a couple of flash bulbs out in it too, it still flashed as i can't remember if there are 3 or 4 flash bulbs in there, but at least 1 was still working.
after putting in new bulbs, none of the flash lights in the trough under the spook-house and boomerang flashed any more.
I tried putting the bulbs in that I had taken out and still no flashing. I even swappee around the order of the bulbs several times, Importantly - The carousel stopped spinning at the same time.
I changed the bulbs with the power off so was convinced id not shorted anything.
are the two related in some way ? and what might need replacing to fix it ?
I assumed something on the main board had blown as a result of higher current required to drive all bulbs.
without the carousel working it makes the game fairly pointless to play, even after i blocked the path to the carousel with a sponge, my kids didn't want to play it anymore.
so its probably been powered off now for 3 months and im still being nagged about when im going to fix it.
now when powered up, we have a 3rd problem, one section of each digit on the top row of the display is out, I have examined and tested the displays and wiring and am fairly certain the problem is not with the soldering of the displays or the wiring between boards and displays. so i'm guessing its a chip or two on the display driver board, that's not beyond my ability to replace, however who can tell me which chip or chips should i be looking at testing or replacing ?
It's a Williams 11B system

 

[cathaldub]

For the Display, have you tried re-seating the ribbon cable on the main board and on the display side, even swapping/flipping the two ends around, happens my whirlwind every now and then and that always fixes it. and it should at least prove if its the ribbon cable if the missing section moves location.
I'm currently re-assembling my Cyclone at the moment, the Ferris wheel and the flashers are on separate circuits so it's possibly just a broken ground somewhere over that direction, of the underside of the playfield, can you check the voltage on the motor with a meter?

 

[Jay Walker]

Hello,

The section of the player 1 & 2 display that's not working in the picture is designated "segment 'b' " - all segments 'b' in the alpha-numeric display envelopes (1 & 2) are a common connection, and driven using one of the high voltage rails. I can't recall definitely if it's positive for the digits and negative for the segments, but take care measuring components on the display driver circuit board. The schematic shows segment 'b' driven by chip U 12, pin 15, a '7180' device, via resistor R 3.

The Ferris wheel is rotated by an ac motor, using the input power to one of the bridge rectifiers for solenoid power. The circuit to the motor is controlled by a relay on a small circuit board under the playfield, which in turn is switched as a solenoid load. This relay should be heard clicking during the 'Solenoid Test'. To narrow down whether the problem is switching or ac power, the relay can be energised manually. First make sure the relay board is for the Ferris wheel (it's shown up against the r/h edge of the playfield), then with the machine on carefully use a length of wire to connect the anode (plain end) of the diode on the relay circuit board to an earth, such as the braid inside the cabinet. The relay should energise, turning the wheel motor. If it energises but the wheel remains still, the problem is on the ac side, e.g. burnt relay contacts, worn out motor. Or as Cathal suggests, disconnect the motor wiring plug and check for ac voltage across the pins when the wheel should be turning. If the relay doesn't energise, check for solenoid power by measuring voltage at the cathode (banded) end of the diode.

The bright flash-bulbs are also driven as solenoids, but have protective resistors to prolong their lifespan. The 11B games such as Cyclone and Space Station have their f/bulb resistors grouped together on one circuit board, awkwardly placed inside the back wall of the cabinet (earlier games have small boards squeezed in anywhere under the playfield). Check for any broken resistors there. There are three separate flashbulb circuits that may be concerned, solenoid 08C is the one behind the drop target (also wired as 'Left Fireworks' behind the backglass), solenoid 09 is for the large arrow pointing at the drop target (shared with a 6v 'feature' lamp), and solenoid 15 is the two Boomerang flashbulbs, which should be a different type from the other f/bulbs, #1251 rather than the usual #89.

 

[Gandalf]

Hello,

The section of the player 1 & 2 display that's not working in the picture is designated "segment 'b' " - all segments 'b' in the alpha-numeric display envelopes (1 & 2) are a common connection, and driven using one of the high voltage rails. I can't recall definitely if it's positive for the digits and negative for the segments, but take care measuring components on the display driver circuit board. The schematic shows segment 'b' driven by chip U 12, pin 15, a '7180' device, via resistor R 3.

The Ferris wheel is rotated by an ac motor, using the input power to one of the bridge rectifiers for solenoid power. The circuit to the motor is controlled by a relay on a small circuit board under the playfield, which in turn is switched as a solenoid load. This relay should be heard clicking during the 'Solenoid Test'. To narrow down whether the problem is switching or ac power, the relay can be energised manually. First make sure the relay board is for the Ferris wheel (it's shown up against the r/h edge of the playfield), then with the machine on carefully use a length of wire to connect the anode (plain end) of the diode on the relay circuit board to an earth, such as the braid inside the cabinet. The relay should energise, turning the wheel motor. If it energises but the wheel remains still, the problem is on the ac side, e.g. burnt relay contacts, worn out motor. Or as Cathal suggests, disconnect the motor wiring plug and check for ac voltage across the pins when the wheel should be turning. If the relay doesn't energise, check for solenoid power by measuring voltage at the cathode (banded) end of the diode.

The bright flash-bulbs are also driven as solenoids, but have protective resistors to prolong their lifespan. The 11B games such as Cyclone and Space Station have their f/bulb resistors grouped together on one circuit board, awkwardly placed inside the back wall of the cabinet (earlier games have small boards squeezed in anywhere under the playfield). Check for any broken resistors there. There are three separate flashbulb circuits that may be concerned, solenoid 08C is the one behind the drop target (also wired as 'Left Fireworks' behind the backglass), solenoid 09 is for the large arrow pointing at the drop target (shared with a 6v 'feature' lamp), and solenoid 15 is the two Boomerang flashbulbs, which should be a different type from the other f/bulbs, #1251 rather than the usual #89.

eeeeek, this is sounding complicated
i have printed out the advice and am going to check through it at the earliest opportunity.
i need to look into #1251 rather than the usual #89 as all I had were #89 bulbs
im pretty sure the display problem isnt the cable or the displays as it was checked end to end, but will try again
the ferris wheel did stop rotating after i replaced the flash bulbs with #89, which im told now are the wrong ones

 

[Moonraker]

If you used #89 instead of #1251 then that is the cause of your problem. Place the correct bulbs in and see if the circuit works again, although it sounds like you've blown a fuse and the carousel is probably on the same circuit. As others had said re-seat (pull off and put back on a few times) display ribbon cables with the power off at both ends first before trying anything else.

 

[Gandalf]

is there no " delete a post" ? on this forum as I can't find it
if I accidentally post something twice, like i just did, how do i delete the duplicate post?

 

[Gandalf]

If you used #89 instead of #1251 then that is the cause of your problem. Place the correct bulbs in and see if the circuit works again, although it sounds like you've blown a fuse and the carousel is probably on the same circuit. As others had said re-seat (pull off and put back on a few times) display ribbon cables with the power off at both ends first before trying anything else.

New bank holiday weekend, i will do the rersearch and repairs, ive never heard of #1251 bulbs, ive always replaced flashers with #89 or the old EM flashers with old EM flashers, which I still have a supply of from the 1960s i think.

the ribbon reseating thing, any reason it can't be wiggled while plugged in ?
will it blow ic's ? or are you just worried about me getting zapped

 

[Moonraker]

http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/04-1251
Hmm, 28v to power them no wonder your #89's are not working as they're rated at 13v. So that will have taken the fuse out, which is why it has a fuse in the first place.

Re-seating cleans the connectors of crud build-up (hence doing it a few times), wiggling it won't.

It's easy to reconnect wrong and if the power is on the game it will blow up components (or ic's) if you do, then you'll have expensive board repairs or replacement.

It's easy to get zapped, just stick your fingers where you're not supposed to with the power on..!

 

[Gandalf]

so just to clarify, on a sys 11 its OK to disconnect and connect displays without IC damage ?
I wasn't sure
I don't mind being zapped, happens fairly often, over past 50 years and im still here.
there isn't any chance of me connecting something wrong, im careful enough in that respect.
as for contacts, i always clean pins, check sockets as best i can and in a case like this with standard connectors, i try other leads as well.

 

[Jay Walker]

Do you mean to disconnect/reconnect with the power On? I wouldn't recommend that. I'd have the mains plug in to give an earthing path for any static there may be around, but have the machine itself switched Off.

In any case, except for the earliest uses, most System 11 games have the display 'envelopes' all mounted on the same circuit board anyway. The Cpu board sends instructions and data to the display board, which actually does the high-voltage control work. It is as I recalled, btw; the digits are on the positive 90V side, the segments use the negative -100V.

 

[Gandalf]

Ok will be doing some checking and will double check with circuit diagrams, its not going to be this holiday weekend though, plan just changed, i have to do 600 mile trip to pickup a machine and exchange 1 backglass for a different backglass

 

[Jay Walker]

I'd suggest putting the machine into Display Test if you're going to measure anything 'live', and halting it (by latching the Up/Down diagnostic switch to Down) showing a number using seg. b, such as 1 or 7. Then you could compare steady readings for b against those for another lit segment, 'c' in the case of #1, 'a' & 'c' for #7