Alphanumeric machines that would be great with a DMD upgrade..

[highjon]

I was really impressed with the guys who have developed DMD systems to fit older alphanumeric machines. Was it Pinbot?
I also noticed in the recent Pinball news coverage of the Dutch Open that there was a Roadkings which had received that mod - looked great! Looks like a transformed machine.

Which 80's game would be a big hit if it had a DMD?

I'm nominating "Swords of Fury" - if that had a dmd people would be fighting over them !

 

[Spandangler]

I think any system11 game would be cool.

 

[lukewells]

But a DMD doesn't bring anything to the gameplay

 

[Spandangler]

True. Maybe a video mode and some cool animations but then again, that's about all dmds bring to the table anyway

 

[Sgt GrizZ]

But a DMD doesn't bring anything to the gameplay

I thought they had reworked the rules with BOP ?? Could be wrong.

 

[Spandangler]

I think it has different rules Grizz. I've been holding on to my bop for this very reason but at well over a grand thanks to requiring a special dmd and speakers, it's outta my range. I don't want it that bad. Think BoP might be for the chop. Fancy another FT or a SW.

 

[highjon]

Gaz is right on both counts - any sys 11 probably, and a few animations etc.
I think Swords of fury gameplay is good enough to stand on its own two feet.
But I just love mini playfields and timeout thingys....

 

[lukewells]

True. Maybe a video mode and some cool animations but then again, that's about all dmds bring to the table anyway

Video modes are great if you find a machine on site, stick a £1 in and play it once or twice

When you own a machine, and you are seeing the same video mode for the 1000th+ time, it becomes tedious, especially on the ones that are really easy to complete.

 

[Sgt GrizZ]

True. Maybe a video mode and some cool animations but then again, that's about all dmds bring to the table anyway

But the DMD allows so much more gameplay information for the player, which in turn means the rules can be a lot more complex as the player isn't just reliant on a deciphering a bunch of flashing playfield lamps to understand what the heck is going on.

 

[abaxas]

But the DMD allows so much more gameplay information for the player, which in turn means the rules can be a lot more complex as the player isn't just reliant on a deciphering a bunch of flashing playfield lamps to understand what the heck is going on.

I know I bang on about it. But this is part of the transition of gameplay from being scoring to story.

Hence, I'm struggling to find a game which would benefit from a DMD 'upgrade' as it would offer nothing other than more 'flashy lights'.

 

[Sgt GrizZ]

I know I bang on about it. But this is part of the transition of gameplay from being scoring to story.

Hence, I'm struggling to find a game which would benefit from a DMD 'upgrade' as it would offer nothing other than more 'flashy lights'.

Somrthing like Swords Of Fury though potentially has a story there ....the Lionman, capturing the Titans, the ogres ...its all there waiting

 

[abaxas]

But adding in a story would change the game.

You dont need a DMD to transfer information as simply as this

The King's Ransom! EVERYTHING IS LIT #pinball Vine Video

 

[Sgt GrizZ]

But adding in a story would change the game.

Err.....but isn't that the idea. From what I have seen of the BOP with DMD the game has changed and is all the better for it. I know its all subjective.

 

[abaxas]

Err.....but isn't that the idea. From what I have seen of the BOP with DMD the game has changed and is all the better for it. I know its all subjective.

But I would argue it is no longer BoP. It's a game based on a BoP playfield and I'm not sure changing near perfection is a good idea.

BoP is a great game.

 

[Calimori]

This is one of those arguments that I realise can rumble on. Some people like mods, some people don't, same with classic car or any other example of a collectable item.
Perfection is based on someones personal opinion. Was the original Star War's films perfect? Lucas thought they could be better and re-made them (or was it a cash-in ploy?). E-Type Jags with disk brakes and fuel injection will go faster and stop better so are safer and more fun. Does it stop being an E-Type?

I see the desire to "make a game better" from a personal point of view. New modes are like buying new levels or maps on computer games and I am use to that from my gaming days. Would @abaxas look on these updates any differently if they were produced by the original developers? I am not interested in making non-DMD's more attractive to DMD only pin buyers as I am not in that group. I would consider doing this if it could make a game click better with my audience. Playing a pin for the first time can be overwhelming and a good game get lost on my friends.

I subtly modify my cars/motorbikes and I do the same with my pins. I don't get out an angle grinder and cut bits off (actually I have done on a car but on a part that was a safety concern). It doesn't stop being a Classic VW because it is a bit lower or has some chrome trim and if you bought it off me (you won't as it is unlikely to be sold, I will sleep in it if I lose my house), all parts can be removed.

Mods don't ruin a game, bad owners do.

 

[abaxas]

This is going to sound big headed but I'm going to say it anyways!

I would class myself as seasoned gamer, in terms of the old school understanding. IE I do not play/understand a small small section of games(or even game). Instead I feel I understand games as a whole with some special areas of expertise (shmups and racing games). I also enjoy board games, role playing (dont get that much of an opportunity these days) and even card trading games. Because of this, I view games as the enjoyment contained within it rather than it's packaging. A great game can look crap, sound like a spectrum loading, be bug ridden and I dont care providing the core mechanics are good.

This core mechanic, however, can be embellished with bling. Better graphics, amazing sound, deeper rules, etc. But for me, this is irrelevant, as I can fantasize in these things. To my mind Gran Turismo 1 is just as amazing as 5, GTA 1 is as great as GTA V, just as Doom is to Call of Duty (whatever number they are currently on). The one disadvantage of this 'bling' is that it can get in the way of fantasy and hinder suspension of belief but equally it can be 'cool'.

This may sound like I'm arguing outside the topic. It's relevance is that adding something is NOT the same as improvement unless the core game is unchanged and ,by definition, if the core game is the same the addition is not needed and only brings the 'bling'. If however, the core game is changed, it needs to be viewed as a separate entity and reviewed as such.

I do, however, think that writing new games using old play fields is a great idea. Like any mod, as long as it's reversible, there is no risk.

 

[Calimori]

I respect your opinion, I know I am in the middle field where I can appreciate those who wish to keep things classic and those who want to modernise or adapt their own example. I live by rule that if it can be reversed then it is not ruined.

But there is one contention point I want to raise:
You imply that "deeper rules" are an embellishment with bling. All the Stern/JJP unfinished code discussions going on, demonstrate that rules make a table. All the other things, such as toys and light shows can me mapped to your "Better graphics, amazing sound". But rules are what makes a table great in my mind, what make it a keeper.
I would say that new modes are not disimilar to adding a new track to your racing car game, what actually changes the the core mechanics of GTA 1 when you can now race at the Nurburgring?

 

[abaxas]

I think the issue here is that the unfinished code could break the core gameplay of the machine in a home environment, hence why people hate it. But equally this can be avoided in the method in which you play the game.

To take the pinball example. Most modern tables are lopsided to strategy, multiballs for replays, modes which apply to wizard mode for scores. The skill is to set your own goals and no be taken on the near linear journey the modes offer. Good examples of this are, loop champion, bear kicks in TAF or warps in STTNG.

The reason for the 'side quests' is that we all mostly played on dirty partially working machines where the nuances and problems needed to be found so we could play the game as best as we could, not 100% as the designers would have hoped. We need to remember that pinball machines are meant to sit unloved in an arcade and only be fixed when they stop making money. Which is very hard to do in a home environment, especially when the must polish and clean gene kicks in

Also remember that WMS also put out lots of bad rom revisions and operators never changed upgraded to working ones. This is especially true of machines where small faults make the game unplayable.

This is all harks back to fantasy, suspension of belief and setting of your own goals. Which has me thinking...... can you get more than 99 u-turns on BK2K? I think I'm going to have to find out.

 

[Moonraker]

Err.....but isn't that the idea. From what I have seen of the BOP with DMD the game has changed and is all the better for it. I know its all subjective.

Yep, the game has changed but not for the better. Played it a few times and desperate to like it but it's not to be. There's some nice bits with cool graphics on the DMD like the skill shots but and it's a big but what on earth possessed them to have a space shuttle theme... It's just crying out for bride graphics on the DMD to fit in with the rest of the playfield and cabinet.

 

[RudeDogg1]

Aparently they have changed the space shuttle theme thing that was just a demo. What they said on pinside the other day anyway

 

[abaxas]

What would be cool is driver/cpu/sound board upgrades where they could run both new and old code. Sort of like the P-ROC but designed both for keeping old machines alive and writing new software.

A bit like lots of classic cars are fitted with electronic ignition. Easily removed but makes the car much more drivable and reliable.

 

[highjon]

All valid replies. I just think explaining the existing rules through graphics would be a big help on some machines... Rather like having your mate standing over your shoulder telling you what shot to hit next, and why.
Also means non experienced players understand the game and enjoy the game quicker...
Rule cards on the apron only carry a little info~

 

[Snux]

With the P-ROC you can in most cases run the old code as well as develop your own. We have a version of pinmame modified to run the actual machine via the P-ROC, so you can choose what to run. If you switched to a DMD from older displays (if you are using the P-ROC in a Sys11 for example), then pinmame will emulate on the DMD.


Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2

 

[myPinballs]

With the P-ROC you can in most cases run the old code as well as develop your own. We have a version of pinmame modified to run the actual machine via the P-ROC, so you can choose what to run. If you switched to a DMD from older displays (if you are using the P-ROC in a Sys11 for example), then pinmame will emulate on the DMD.


Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2

Or you can create a new p-roc game and stick with the System 11 displays. Myself and Mark worked out how to get that bit sorted. You can still run the pinmame game to

 

[Rus121]

How about a twin eeprom board that allows the switching of two different ROMs? Whilst i'm asking, someone needs to make FreeWPC understandable to someone with the programming ability of a spasticated otter.