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Pop bumper locks on

paddythegreek

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Joined
Aug 30, 2011
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Ken
Whilst replacing a bulb in the lower pop bumper on my Diner i caught the skirt and the pop bumper fired just the once. Tried it a few more times and each time it fires. None of the others do as they should'nt.
Decided to go into sw test mode but as soon as i press the advance button inside the door the lower pop bumper locks on. So i decide to play a game and the lower pop bumper is dead. wtf is happening. When it fires it's in attract mode, coin door open. The door switches are not part of the sw matrix which makes it more confusing.
Any ideas cos i ain't.
 
I will check it but it was changed along with the predrive about a fortnight ago and it's been workinh fine
 
I do not know diner. Does it have a capacitor on the relevant switch ? These things do fail. First cut one leg to isolate it, then either solder the broken leg if nothing has changed, or replace it
 
Update. Installed the diner eproms in one of my spare boards and the damn things fine so the fault(s) lurking somewhere on the original cpu/power board.
 
AIR Diner was built after Williams had dropped 'Special' switches for Jet Bumpers, though these and slingshots were still driven from the same set of components/drives (17-22) on the Cpu board, and enabled along with the flipper relay by the 'Game On' line, EN (the line should be above the letters, signifying "EN Bar", an active Low signal). The flipper relay and the six 'special' solenoids shouldn't work while EN Bar is High, which is during Attract, and when the machine's tilted. Starting a game or going into Test/Bookkeeping brings the line Low, enabling the solenoids through some small-scale integration (SSI) logic gating chips, U 44 & 45?, and energising the relay. Since the 'Special Solenoid Trigger' inputs from the playfield are no longer used, the program for Diner uses its own individual solenoid control lines to operate the coils during play, as it does during the Solenoid Test

The fact that the solenoid doesn't simply lock On altogether, but only upon entering the Test Mode suggests that the drive transistor itself is alright, but being falsely switched by the gating chip(s)
 
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Ok thanks for that. I have spare eproms so will install them tomorrow and bench test the board using a logic probe to see if i can find anything amiss
 
Erm just a query but did you mean U45 and U50 as u44 appears to feed the displays if i've read the schematics correct
 
Sorry if obvious, but are the stacked leaf switches ok under the troublesome pop bumper ?

Some system 11 games had these horrible, stacked leaf switches. A regular saucer type switch triggers it, the other directly underneath it gets smacked open by the pop bumper meralwork below the playfield and resets it

I messed about fine tuning them on my banzai run years ago and ended up with a locked on coil and and a fuse blowing
 
I did check on this before posting my querey but i only have one switch under the bumper. As the machine plays ok with the spare board i have to assume the faults on the original board. I still would like to get it sorted. Thanks for everyones help and suggestions so far.
 
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I wasn't entirely sure about the ic numbering, #44 is indeed an unrelated component (it's a decoder chip used for the displays) and the gating chips are 45 & 50, '7402' Quad NOr Gate. The four separate gate circuits of U 45 operate 'special' solenoids 1 to 4, while U 50 is divided between operating specials 5 & 6, and forming the Game On logic (with help from U 56) to enable/disable the special group and flipper relay.

The schematic shows that special 5's driver/pre-driver are tied to the 2-input NOr gate using pins 1, 2 & 3 of U 50. In this case, the pin 3 input is the Game On line, commoned with its five equivalents in the special group, and Low during play and test. The pin 2 input has a connection to the Special Switch connector (not used on this game) and the Cpu's control for special 5, labelled 'E'. A NOr (NOT/Inverse Or) gate should only show a High output with both inputs Low, so here pin 3 should drop Low when a game is started, so that a Low pulse on pin 2/'E' produces a High pulse from pin 1, switching the pre-driver/driver and coil. Other components involved are resistors R 102, 103 & 104, a resistor in the package SR 20, zener diode ZR 7 and capacitor C 75.


To clarify about the redundant Special Switches, when used the contacts closed by the spoon blade (or of the twin rubber band switches, for slingshots) had no concern with the switch matrix - the relevant Special Trigger was pulled to ground with the contacts closed, providing a hopefully brief input pulse for the NOr gate and energising the coil (provided that Game On was also at its valid Low state). The first that the game program knew about this was when the additional matrixed 'Scoring' switch was permitted to close by movement of the bumper armature, or slingshot linkage, producing sound effect, point score and any other programmed action, e.g alternating lit bumper lights.
 
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image.jpg Update No2. About 3 hrs ago i replaced U56 which uses two pins to operate the relay. Prior to replacing u56 i had the board hooked up to a power supply on the bench. As soon as power was applied the relay pulled in and as i'd replaced U45 and 50 i decided to replace U56. As soon as power was applied the relay did'nt pull in so after switching on and off loads of times it was still ok. I decided to install the board back into the m/c.
Switch on and everything seems ok but now i have a problem with the bottom alpha numeric display ( i'll come back to this). Anyway i press the advance button and NO locked on pop bumper coil. Decided to play a game to see what happened and everything is great except the bottom display. After lots of games it plays ok.
Back to the bottom display.
In display test i have missing segments
a b c d e f and g. In attract mode some of the numbers/letters are missing on the display and obviously you cannot read what it says. No pins are loose or missing on the main board or the actual display. I have reseated the ribbon cable about half a dozen times incase it was this. So any ideas on this please.
 
Those segments have commonality with pull up resistor bank scr2 so worth checking you have 5v on the resistor bank and that it’s not damaged. Then it uses the bottom half of pia u41. So if it’s plugable try replacing that.
 
I don't know this machine, but - if it has two identical displays, can you swap the ribbons around to determine whether it is a display fault of a cable or board fault? Also you have a spare board, so could swap that again and see if the problem persists.
 
Ermmmm. This is embarrassing. Went out to check the voltage on scr2 as per Andys advice and straighr away spotted that plug J3 was'nt connected. Refit plug and yippee do all is good. How the hell can you not spot a plug is off and for over 3 hrs.
So thank you all who contributed help and advice on and off this forum. The end result is a working board and thats all i wanted. My wife says i should go sit on the stupid bu**er chair, i didn't even know we had one.
Once again "thanks all"
 
This age of System 11 Williams branded games (Taxi onwards) do have two identical display envelopes, but they're both attached to the same circuit board, which also contains the high-voltage sections of the driver circuits. It's time consuming to swap the envelopes themselves.

The circuit board also appears in three different variants;
  1. With provision for two remotely-sited 7 digit 7 segment displays, as in RiverBoat Gambler ("-3")
  2. With provision for one remote display, e.g. Taxi, Police Force ("-2")
  3. Without any ability to drive additional displays ("-1")
The three versions generally* aren't interchangeable either, except for short term 'elimination' tests

* Only a -3 replacing a -2 shows no ill-effect in use
 
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