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HLD - A Phone Call

James

James

Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 29, 2017
Messages
5,100
Location
Norwich
Alias
James
Just got a call from Home Leisure Direct on my No Fear.

After a bit of discussion.

Me: No I wouldn't want to sell to HLD
Helmut: Why is that then?
Me: The obscene prices you are asking for pinballs which is pushing the price up.
Helmut: No that's just the state of pinball. I have been in it for a few years and the prices have just gone crazy.
Me: Ok, so you have it on your website, you are asking for £3.5k... what are you offering me?
Helmut: Well I don't have anything to trade.
Me (After quick google): Ok, so if your looking for £3.5k - what are you going to be paying me?
Helmut: Well, £1,500 that you are looking for.....
Me: Ok, well I think that's summed it up really, no it's not for me, thanks.

Unreal.
 
I sold a TAF on behalf of a friend of mine on EBay, HLD were the highest bidder at £5350, took them quite a long time to collect it but all was good.

They were certainly willing to pay high end money on that one.

Watched their website since and it hasn’t come up on there. Would be interested for what they would move it on for, as I guess they would have two lots of transport and a warranty to put on it, but as a machine it didn’t need anything doing to it.

Chris.
 
They have to make a profit and probably have to charge VAT, so 3.5k becomes £2,917 sale value to them. That gives them a margin of £1,417. Out of that they have to cover all sorts of costs: collect from seller, test, refurb/repair, store, then advertise for sale, sell and then deliver, to buyer and then stand the cost of repairs and outcalls for the warranty period. They also have to pay their staff wages, on-costs NI, sick pay, training, rent rates, insurance, etc. etc. They also have admin staff and other staff wages to cover. They will probably make a few hundred quid on it, if they are lucky.

I'm not defending them, but just illustrating how it works to be in business. Suddenly a 1.5k stock cost look reasonable to turn into a 3.5k RRP. Most shops selling any sort of goods are on 40-50% stock cost compare to Retail price.

When you look at it this way - it all makes perfect sense. It just doesn't make sense to us as we know we can buy direct for 1.5k so we'd be crazy buying from them for 2k more.
 
I understand the business aspect of it @AlanJ - but I think that there is no doubt that such resale elements are disproportionately affecting the market. The HLD market is clearly the higher end games rooms where people get an all-in price, but I am not interested in feeding that part of the market. I would like to sell it to another collector, have that relationship with someone, preferably on a trade as discussed and keep the community going.

Should I want to make some money @Marvello would I have taken £2.5k, well yes I would have been tempted of course, but I would rather sell it on Gumtree locally, for say £1.7k which I am sure I could get once shopped and re-rubbered, but be close by to answer questions and help where I can, @mcbooton hopefully can testify, is how I want to do business.

I've been in collecting retro video games for a while, and I didn't deal with the dealers in that scene either, when a £25 mega-drive from a boot sale would be £75, with a couple of football games. I did used to trade a lot and get help/help others who actually got the games to play. Did I make any money on some games, hell yeah, picked up a dreamcast bundle for £40 and sole one of the games for £65 - from a dealer that would have been £90 and I knew the owner would ACTUALLY be playing it, and was a completionist looking for that game. Call me naive, arrogant, stupid - whatever, but for me, that's what a community should be about.
 
Admire your stance on this James but agree with @replicas as this isn't a really sort after machine, otherwise it would have sold already, plus you are probably asking top price for it so if they are offering to pay your asking price then go for it, no ebay hassle, tyre kickers, etc.

Not defending HLD's pricing structure but as @AlanJ says they are a business and are doing it for profit so they need to sell for more than they pay for it - ok £3500 is insane price for NF, nobody on here would pay it, but HLD customers more than likely don't frequent this site so have no idea on 'real' values and maybe have loads of £££££££££'s anyway :D

If they were offering you say £1k and trying to rip you off then fine but full asking price, your choice. Put it on ebay then they can bid on it/buy it on there!!

I know some, maybe all, of their prices are excessive but unfortunately we can't 'police' pinball prices :D

I am not connected to or affiliated to HLD in any way, unless they want to pay me £2k for NF then i'll buy it off you for £1500 James :p
 
Neil McRae said:
man you are mental!

I'd call them back and take the money.

Neil.
Click to expand...

The thing is I don't dislike it enough to HAVE to sell it, just had another cracking game (for me) on it, smashing out a 2.2BN... I am putting an order in now for some rubbers, posts and other bits (needs a good spinner on it and the proper decals), I am going to shop it, then see what happens after that's done.

I think I was a little rude to Helmut though, I have messaged him and said sorry for that LOL.

I'm going to go for another game lol
 
AlanJ said:
They have to make a profit and probably have to charge VAT, so 3.5k becomes £2,917 sale value to them. That gives them a margin of £1,417. Out of that they have to cover all sorts of costs: collect from seller, test, refurb/repair, store, then advertise for sale, sell and then deliver, to buyer and then stand the cost of repairs and outcalls for the warranty period. They also have to pay their staff wages, on-costs NI, sick pay, training, rent rates, insurance, etc. etc. They also have admin staff and other staff wages to cover. They will probably make a few hundred quid on it, if they are lucky.

I'm not defending them, but just illustrating how it works to be in business. Suddenly a 1.5k stock cost look reasonable to turn into a 3.5k RRP. Most shops selling any sort of goods are on 40-50% stock cost compare to Retail price.

When you look at it this way - it all makes perfect sense. It just doesn't make sense to us as we know we can buy direct for 1.5k so we'd be crazy buying from them for 2k more.
Click to expand...

^ This 100%

Also, bought my RFM from a HLD customer, he couldn't speak highly enough of their attitude to selling, good size showroom everything on freeplay, tea/coffee on tap, no pressure selling. It all costs.

Chris.
 
If you don't accept whatever the top price you can get, it's the same as handing a mate £200 at the bar as a little gift from you to them;)

Of course it's better to sell here if you can but people aren't biting your hand off for this title, so you did your best.
 
@James. You offered your NF on fb for trade or sale (£1500). I offered you 1.5k and you ask for much more. Anyway it is not HLD's fault that the Pinball price went stupidly up in the past 5 years. The Pinball price went up in every Country around Europe. @Nickoss II, yes I'm working for HLD now. I know Andy for a long time now and he offered me the job weeks before Heighway's Cluster f.... I have a job (very important), I like the people around me and I love Pinball and I have the freedom to do my job @HLD.
 
High prices are more down to eBay when people do a search other countries prices appear leading to people thinking they're more expensive. Then we have people from other countries who then head over to the UK to cherry pick at what is affordable for them but most in this country will snort at or comment on for being too expensive....
 
My twopence worth is that it's like buying a used car from a dealer rather than privately. You're paying the extra on the assumption you're getting a good product with no issues, and some form of after sales support / warranty if there do turn out to be problems.

Having said that, whatever the level of service is that they offer I do think buying from HLD could leave a nasty taste in the mouth when it's discovered that the 'value' (realistic private selling price) of the game is vastly less than was paid - so in this case £1500 vs £3500 - but then it doesn't take long to research prices before you buy.

I sold a Stern Indy to HLD a while ago, but only after I'd offered it on here with no takers. I didn't want the hassle of EBay and HLD paid the asking price and collected quickly, so no complaints from me on that score.
 
andy said:
My twopence worth is that it's like buying a used car from a dealer rather than privately. You're paying the extra on the assumption you're getting a good product with no issues, and some form of after sales support / warranty if there do turn out to be problems.

Having said that, whatever the level of service is that they offer I do think buying from HLD could leave a nasty taste in the mouth when it's discovered that the 'value' (realistic private selling price) of the game is vastly less than was paid - so in this case £1500 vs £3500 - but then it doesn't take long to research prices before you buy.

I sold a Stern Indy to HLD a while ago, but only after I'd offered it on here with no takers. I didn't want the hassle of EBay and HLD paid the asking price and collected quickly, so no complaints from me on that score.
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Fully agree i have only sold one pin to HLD but was offered on here with no takers
its sad that the price is much more if you buy from them but they are a business with staff to pay and big over heads
The main thing that annoys me as i have been called out to a few of pins that have been bought from them and have been told that they have just been fobbed off when problems have come up and when i have looked at there work its shocking not even the basics done no flipper re builds or anything just cleaned and re rubbered seems to me if it works its all good the last machine i repaired from them didint even have a backbox lock or any back glass trim just insulation tape holding it in this machine was over 2k of what you could have bought it for on here so in my eyes should be fully service and spot on with a good warrenty to back it up
 
My penny worth. Sounds like Helmut had the decency to introduce himself as representing HLD in your first conversation. Had he not, I assume you would have sold it at 1.5k to him.
So fair play to Helmut. And fair play to you for messaging him to say sorry.
 
As I said selling to HLD isn’t for me, but I’m sure it is for many. @Helmut Langenbruch - as I said in my message sorry for being short with you, but to clarify I never asked for more, I asked what HLD were selling it for. As many have said, there are overheads and costs of warranty, which, assuming all is done as advertised will cost a bit of money. I guess I’m also a bit dubious of the stories I’ve heard of:

Listing pins not available and then swap selling.

Listing other people’s pins, knowingly not representative a product that will ever be available

Charging higher prices and not honouring warranty

Listing items fully shopped when condition is other than stated.

I’m not suggesting any Is a practice HLD is involved in, maybe I’ve got my wires crossed with other dealers, and as many have said they would sell to HLD still at the right price. For me, it’s just a case of not knowingly wanting to feed that machine.

Ultimately, if I want £1.5k for NF and it never sells, when HLD were offering me it, there’s only one idiot in the offing and that’s me :p
 
domlouis said:
My penny worth. Sounds like Helmut had the decency to introduce himself as representing HLD in your first conversation. Had he not, I assume you would have sold it at 1.5k to him.
So fair play to Helmut. And fair play to you for messaging him to say sorry.
Click to expand...
This is a good point.

There is a lot to this really. HLD are a business and need to turn a profit otherwise what's the point? The bigger problem in my opinion is that private sellers think they can use HLD's asking prices as a benchmark, without providing any of the things HLD does - i.e. peace of mind that there is a business entity you can moan at/take to court, finance options, etc.

This has a bigger effect on market prices than HLD scooping up bargains and reselling then imo. Just as @James didn't perhaps contemplate the costs involved, neither do eBay sellers etc either.

Prices would be more sane if the likes of HLD didn't exist, sure, but there's not a lot of point bemoaning that. That's business for you.
 
I visited HLD and they were very friendly, offered a drink and let me play on any of the machines in the room. No pushy sales tactics at all which was very refreshing. However, they are out of my budget so I'm seeking a private sale instead. I appreciate their business model though and there is a place for it. Unfortunately, as Durzel said above some private sellers just google whatever HLD or Liberty are selling for and list it on ebay, Gumtree, FB marketplace etc for that price themselves thereby inflating the values overall without offering the extra service and warranty that HLD/Liberty can give.
 
Durzel said:
Just as @James didn't perhaps contemplate the costs involved, neither do eBay sellers etc either
Click to expand...

I decided to run the numbers actually, fag packet maths, but actually, to re decal this which it would need, warranty and some hefty Hefty period costs... didn't come out too badly, I know a lot of companies who would gladly enter the market at 14% ROS.

Screen Shot 2018-06-17 at 15.09.10.png
 
It is kinda funny . A group of people (us) who own loads of pinball machines complaining about a company for pushing up the prices of them?
 
Andy Hancock said:
It is kinda funny . A group of people (us) who own loads of pinball machines complaining about a company for pushing up the prices of them?
Click to expand...

But if we didn't own them, they'd just be in the bin, as per the old days, there's pushing the price up due to market conditions (i.e. supply and demand) and then there is profiteering*

*Of course all business is profiteering, if HLD find buyers at that price, then why not, as I said, this wasn't about HLD's practices, moreover that I won't, as I said, feed it.
 
If HLD chooses to frequent a nerd/ geek forum then that is fine as long as the guys there declare themselves as dealers.

It sounds like HLD declared themselves so that is fair enough.

That HLD may charge mega money to mugs who grossly overpay for pinball machines is what it is. This is sadly a common business strategy in the UK. There are innumerate businesses that rip people off, in all sectors of the economy. At least HLD is not door knocking the elderly or cold calling folk trying to screw them out of pension money.

As ever. Buyer or seller beware. Do your research.

@Paul , does HLD contribute financially to the forum ? Other dealers do. If not, maybe invite a contribution and if zero is forthcoming perhaps ban them
 
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