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Cftbl - clicking noise and slow to boot
- Thread starter Jason Catrine
- Start date
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It’s been mentioned in the early comments, capacitors!! would be the way I would go about this, the 15000 x 5 are on the power driver board, feel the tops to see if any are bulging. Ideal would be with a meter check the voltages on the test points to see if all are correct.
Ive seen wires soldered directly to the pins many times before, new plugs and sockets will be needed most likely, that way the board can be removed for servicing.
without the tools very difficult to solve, feel the tops of them capacitors it could give you a clue.
Ive seen wires soldered directly to the pins many times before, new plugs and sockets will be needed most likely, that way the board can be removed for servicing.
without the tools very difficult to solve, feel the tops of them capacitors it could give you a clue.
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None are bulging but I do kinda feel that might be the underlying issue. I have now checked the voltages (by somewhat guess work admittedly) and they seem to be the same while in the dead state as they do while in the working state.
I've made some great strides forward today though in terms of troubleshooting and eliminated a lot of things. I'd just like to say thank you to everyone who has messaged. I've now ruled out a lot of things so I really appreciate everyone chipping in to help. Thanks folks.
In my TV repair days if a TV came into life after a minute or two it was always a capacitor low in value.
these Bally/Williams machines are 30 years old now, even perfect working machines I’ve found they read very low, for the cost its the best treat we can give these lovely machines.
I’d be checking the CPU board for any battery leakage damage. Do you have another WPC game you can swap the board out with..
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Yeah i do, but i’m really reluctant to go taking boards out of a working pin. I don’t want to accidentally break another pin so i think i’d rather just buy a 2nd hand board and try that if consensus is this is the board i need to punt at.
Electrolytic caps are rated at anywhere from 5000 to 10000 hour life span. But they have a shelf life (Unused) of 2 years.
The hotter they run (generalising here) the less the lifespan.
There are capacitors that are 50+ years old i have worked with, and the ESR is almost spot on. The one next to it has been well out of Spec.
There is an element of risk in changing those big Caps, since they often pull the through-hole plating out when removing.
The fact that the machine is trying to boot, not booting, and then after 90 secs actually booting sounds to me like an issue with caps... somewhere.
Maybe, if you have the ability, start board changing/swapping... one at a time. But you will need to remove any hard wiring first (thats the first thing i would be doing with this anyhow, if it was me)
i would start with the Power driver, and if no different the CPU. Localise the fault. Once you have a working machine, then you can look at caps/connectors etc... you need to know where the issue lies first, else you will be randomly searching. Will you find it? Eventually... it might be the first thing, or the last thing.
The hotter they run (generalising here) the less the lifespan.
There are capacitors that are 50+ years old i have worked with, and the ESR is almost spot on. The one next to it has been well out of Spec.
There is an element of risk in changing those big Caps, since they often pull the through-hole plating out when removing.
The fact that the machine is trying to boot, not booting, and then after 90 secs actually booting sounds to me like an issue with caps... somewhere.
Maybe, if you have the ability, start board changing/swapping... one at a time. But you will need to remove any hard wiring first (thats the first thing i would be doing with this anyhow, if it was me)
i would start with the Power driver, and if no different the CPU. Localise the fault. Once you have a working machine, then you can look at caps/connectors etc... you need to know where the issue lies first, else you will be randomly searching. Will you find it? Eventually... it might be the first thing, or the last thing.
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I might go moving boards about later if it actually fully dies. For now i’ll be happy with working out which board is most likely at fault.
As for the seller, i have absolutely no ill feelings. I don’t think they intentionally sold me a dying machine. They did message me fri/sat and told me its full previous history. Ok, so it would have been nice to know its previous issues before i bought it but i genuinely think they thought the issues were in the past and they are just as gutted about this situation as i am.
Most importantly here is that it sounds like you and the seller have not fallen out over the situation, and the seller is just as gutted as you are, as you stated. Therefore hopefully the seller will also provide the support along with some assistance and suggestions for the fix.
I am sure you'll get to the bottom of this issue with the help and the excellent support the guys on here can also provide.
I am sure you'll get to the bottom of this issue with the help and the excellent support the guys on here can also provide.
D
Deleted member 2463
So who sold you this pup and why didn’t they flag the dentistry work done by Dr Frankenstein?!
if I was unlucky to have a game like that and I had to sell it - I’d be flagging the fact that the boards have had mor work done than Dolly Parton. If they did that great but still soldering Onto the board like that is just horrific.
I’d try unplugging as much as you can from the CPU board.
if I was unlucky to have a game like that and I had to sell it - I’d be flagging the fact that the boards have had mor work done than Dolly Parton. If they did that great but still soldering Onto the board like that is just horrific.
I’d try unplugging as much as you can from the CPU board.
I was the seller of this machine.
We have not fallen out and of course I am disappointed that this (power issue?) has started to occur.
If I can give you some background info on the machine and the details of the sale to Jason for context as the last thing I would want is anyone thinking I’d purposely sold something not as described and diddled someone.
Some history about the machine first:
This machine was sold to me a couple of years ago on the understanding that it would need a good service and going through.
When I got the machine home although it looked tired everything except a few switches was working so I fixed the switches except one pop bumper switch which I never got around to. (The pop bumper was disclosed to Jason).
During my ownership I purchased a new old stock ORIGINAL Bally hologram from a Pinside member in the states as the original was dead. I also purchased mirrorblades, Comet LED’s and more recently installed one of Stumblors XL Pin2DMD colour displays.
I had planned to strip down the playfield and install all new plastics as they were showing their age (this was also made known to Jason)
When I first got the game I had planned to get it serviced but never did as it just worked except for a couple of resets I had early on but this was rectified by disconnecting and reconnecting a connector in the back box so I just continued to enjoy the game ‘as is’ for over 2 years.
Jason put up a wanted post for a CFTBL which I responded to via a PM.
This is what was mentioned in my first message to Jason.
“The game can be played and enjoyed but personally it’s way overdue a good service.
I would also get the playfield stripped cleaned and serviced which moves me on…
Ramps (plastic) are showing age as are some of the other plastics. I have a brand new right ramp to install. I also have a rubber kit and a few other new bits to install that I just haven’t got around to.
With a good service and some new parts you will have a very nice creech”
Jason replied Sounds good
Via whatsapp I sent approximately 20 photos of the game and a video.
A price was discussed and Jason told me he wanted to buy the game.
We had further conversations about the work required and at one stage of our talks Jason was contemplating the pin going to someone to be fixed up and serviced first before it went to him. I recommended Majestic Pinball.
So I felt confident that it was understood this was a working pin requiring restoration and was happy for it to go to someone that was prepared to do the work / get the work done.
Just over a month after Jason had paid Martin collected the game. When Jason received the game he messaged me to say thank you and confirmed everything was OK and working.
A few days later Jason mentioned that he was having a problem with the game not booting. The only thing I could think of was the connector that had given me some trouble in the past .
So I had a look on Google at some images of WPC boards. (J114 I think?) so I mentioned this to him. Jason said that he would try and re-seat.
I offered a video call to help but Jason had now reseated the connector to no avail and told me that he had contacted someone to take a look at the game for him.
In hindsight I should have sent photos of the boards but I thought we were both on the same page in terms of the game being tired.
I’m sure Jason agrees that he was not expecting a perfect machine as it really was sold as a working machine ready for restoration. But I appreciate that he will still be upset that it has developed this issue as I’m sure he was excited to play it for a bit prior to getting it restored.
** Hopefully it will be booting again soon Jason and I hope that you still continue with your planned restoration! **
We have not fallen out and of course I am disappointed that this (power issue?) has started to occur.
If I can give you some background info on the machine and the details of the sale to Jason for context as the last thing I would want is anyone thinking I’d purposely sold something not as described and diddled someone.
Some history about the machine first:
This machine was sold to me a couple of years ago on the understanding that it would need a good service and going through.
When I got the machine home although it looked tired everything except a few switches was working so I fixed the switches except one pop bumper switch which I never got around to. (The pop bumper was disclosed to Jason).
During my ownership I purchased a new old stock ORIGINAL Bally hologram from a Pinside member in the states as the original was dead. I also purchased mirrorblades, Comet LED’s and more recently installed one of Stumblors XL Pin2DMD colour displays.
I had planned to strip down the playfield and install all new plastics as they were showing their age (this was also made known to Jason)
When I first got the game I had planned to get it serviced but never did as it just worked except for a couple of resets I had early on but this was rectified by disconnecting and reconnecting a connector in the back box so I just continued to enjoy the game ‘as is’ for over 2 years.
Jason put up a wanted post for a CFTBL which I responded to via a PM.
This is what was mentioned in my first message to Jason.
“The game can be played and enjoyed but personally it’s way overdue a good service.
I would also get the playfield stripped cleaned and serviced which moves me on…
Ramps (plastic) are showing age as are some of the other plastics. I have a brand new right ramp to install. I also have a rubber kit and a few other new bits to install that I just haven’t got around to.
With a good service and some new parts you will have a very nice creech”
Jason replied Sounds good
Via whatsapp I sent approximately 20 photos of the game and a video.
A price was discussed and Jason told me he wanted to buy the game.
We had further conversations about the work required and at one stage of our talks Jason was contemplating the pin going to someone to be fixed up and serviced first before it went to him. I recommended Majestic Pinball.
So I felt confident that it was understood this was a working pin requiring restoration and was happy for it to go to someone that was prepared to do the work / get the work done.
Just over a month after Jason had paid Martin collected the game. When Jason received the game he messaged me to say thank you and confirmed everything was OK and working.
A few days later Jason mentioned that he was having a problem with the game not booting. The only thing I could think of was the connector that had given me some trouble in the past .
So I had a look on Google at some images of WPC boards. (J114 I think?) so I mentioned this to him. Jason said that he would try and re-seat.
I offered a video call to help but Jason had now reseated the connector to no avail and told me that he had contacted someone to take a look at the game for him.
In hindsight I should have sent photos of the boards but I thought we were both on the same page in terms of the game being tired.
I’m sure Jason agrees that he was not expecting a perfect machine as it really was sold as a working machine ready for restoration. But I appreciate that he will still be upset that it has developed this issue as I’m sure he was excited to play it for a bit prior to getting it restored.
** Hopefully it will be booting again soon Jason and I hope that you still continue with your planned restoration! **
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Also to confirm the xl dmd DOES have it’s own PSU it’s in the bottom of the machine towards the back.
The issue Jason is having sounds different to the issue I had with the game. The issue I had was the game reset on two occasions when I first got the game.
I recall finding a thread on Pinside and I reseated J114 (I think it was) never had another reset in over 2 years.
But this slow booting issue is new.
The issue Jason is having sounds different to the issue I had with the game. The issue I had was the game reset on two occasions when I first got the game.
I recall finding a thread on Pinside and I reseated J114 (I think it was) never had another reset in over 2 years.
But this slow booting issue is new.
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Not sleeping great as trying to think of what the issue could be. I have just messaged Jason to see if he is free to chat over a video call at some point so we can go through all of the connectors responsible for 5v/12v together and remove / reseat them just incase it wasn’t J114 as I suggested. It was a long time ago so I might be wrong. Although this is a different issue I think it’s worth doing before getting into more technical fixes.
Honestly send the power driver board off for repair. It looks like a monkeys been at it. Get the J connector replaced and repin a new header. Get the board inspected for bad traces, check the caps and bridge rectifiers and replace where neccessary. Then with either a known good or repaired board begin the troubleshooting process if the issues still persist.
When I got my creech it was a dog. Same bodgery with actual nails going into the playfield where the ramp plastic had completely come away!
You paid pretty strong money here for a creech IMO but its not a disaster it just needs some work and it will all be good.
I think you'd been better off buying a fully shopped/restored machine since you don't feel comfortable doing repairs.
When I got my creech it was a dog. Same bodgery with actual nails going into the playfield where the ramp plastic had completely come away!
You paid pretty strong money here for a creech IMO but its not a disaster it just needs some work and it will all be good.
I think you'd been better off buying a fully shopped/restored machine since you don't feel comfortable doing repairs.
What we have to remember these machines are 30 years old, they were money making machines on site. The engineers that repaired them on site did anything they could to keep them going, soldering wires to the pins was the norm.
everyone of my Bally/Williams machines had these bodges, I must say that my WCS had the most, and the worst bodges I’ve seen but of course I loved correcting the bodges and getting the machine looking good again.
If the machine took a few weeks to get to you from Martin, them Capacitors have dropped value even more by sitting in cold storage.
Any faults on a machine are simple with the know how, if that was in my collection I would be on that power driver board straight away for starters even if it was working and get them capacitors changed.
Shame I don’t live nearby I would be over to help you.
Alan
everyone of my Bally/Williams machines had these bodges, I must say that my WCS had the most, and the worst bodges I’ve seen but of course I loved correcting the bodges and getting the machine looking good again.
If the machine took a few weeks to get to you from Martin, them Capacitors have dropped value even more by sitting in cold storage.
Any faults on a machine are simple with the know how, if that was in my collection I would be on that power driver board straight away for starters even if it was working and get them capacitors changed.
Shame I don’t live nearby I would be over to help you.
Alan
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I’ve only skim read this. But here’s a thought. You have some bodges and a history of resets. That means someone has tried to cure the resets in the past. The first (mistaken) step in traditional reset repair was to replace bridge rectifier BR2. It usually doesn’t need replacing but I won’t digress.
Looking at your picture, the bridges look to have been replaced but attached flush with the pcb. Originally there should be a gap between board and bridges. The upshot is that it is impossible to guarantee that the component side traces have been picked up by the solder adequately. (Unless there are correctly wired links on the back). If no links then I would suspect poor solder joints are causing poor 5v. Have the bridges replaced properly and mounted away from the board so that the solder joints can be properly made.
Looking at your picture, the bridges look to have been replaced but attached flush with the pcb. Originally there should be a gap between board and bridges. The upshot is that it is impossible to guarantee that the component side traces have been picked up by the solder adequately. (Unless there are correctly wired links on the back). If no links then I would suspect poor solder joints are causing poor 5v. Have the bridges replaced properly and mounted away from the board so that the solder joints can be properly made.
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And try this.
Unplug the two ribbon cables at the top of the cpu. Switch on. You won't get any display or sound, but if the cpu boots ( middle LED flashing on CPU ), then you need to replace the two ribbon cables. A bad ribbon cable connected to DMD driver can prevent the CPU from booting.
Unplug the two ribbon cables at the top of the cpu. Switch on. You won't get any display or sound, but if the cpu boots ( middle LED flashing on CPU ), then you need to replace the two ribbon cables. A bad ribbon cable connected to DMD driver can prevent the CPU from booting.
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Thanks for all the suggestions guys. I have ruled out a number of things now and have a few things still left to try so it feels like i'm making progress. Appreciate all your help.
Good thing it didn’t come my way for an overhaul . Anyway, as plenty have pointed out the CPU is probably stuck in a reset loop as it is constantly ticking. Measure the 5V on the CPU on startup and see if that is consistently there (probably is). Do you have another CPU you can try (yes, the bodgery with the cables has to be repaired to test)? Happy for you to send me the boards and I’ll have a look. If you want to get Martin with the machine to me before my FF arrives I can have a look at the whole box.
. Anyway, as plenty have pointed out the CPU is probably stuck in a reset loop as it is constantly ticking. Measure the 5V on the CPU on startup and see if that is consistently there (probably is). Do you have another CPU you can try (yes, the bodgery with the cables has to be repaired to test)? Happy for you to send me the boards and I’ll have a look. If you want to get Martin with the machine to me before my FF arrives I can have a look at the whole box.
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Thanks Florian. Appreciate the offer to send it to you. I’ll see how I get on with it over the next couple of days and i’ll ask Martin to grab it if need be.Good thing it didn’t come my way for an overhaul
